Lots of people around here bitching and moaning about how the admins and moderators around here have "ruined this site" and "this site sucks" and blah blah blah.
So here it is folks: Tell me what you want. Tell me what you want to see happen. And don't say shit like "the admins abuse their power" or "they screw us over." Give me some examples.
My guess is that about 1/20 of you have some legitimate reason to be annoyed..and the rest of you are getting sucked into the "mob mentality" and just bashing the site and the admins because that's what everyone else says.
How about some common courtesy from admins - regardless of opinion(s). For example - I remember one post when I was told to "shut the fuck up and go away". I realize that my contributions may not be as impactful as others, however, I think people can disagree without being provocative and rude.
actually, darksheer, really nothing. ive gotten only constuctive criticzm bmetelsky--i think users that get replied with something like that kinda bring it on themselves--and are you sure that that came from an admin??
cant wait for the new additions.. --that's why (without tryin to sound like a custo junkie) that i only have an account with custo--
that is incredibly strange?? one time when i posted it didnt even recognize me.. it said 'unknown' hmmm... i think its has to do with the set up at school.. it has a mind of its own! :)
Darksheer, I cannot find the post - it was some time ago and my participation in that forum thread has moved off my account page. It did happen - I remember staying away from the forums here for some time after that. I'm not thin skinned, but I do get angry when treated like that.
Darksheer, I believe that I was commenting on miriku's rude treatment of another user. I don't think the circumstances really matter - do you? Do you think that a response like the one I outlined above would be warranted by an admin in any situation? Do you think that a response like that, if given by another user, would be grounds for moderation or at least redirection from an admin? Are there any guidelines for the forums here?
Darksheer, Believe me when I say that I appreciate the work put in to bringing this site back. I waited a long time to see it brought back to life. I would like to see it grow vs. wither. I don't believe that continued growth can be optimal if people are bashed and abused.
I can only hope you're being sincere darksheer. I have to tell you, taking the time to write a response here, I expect to get insulted, ridiculed, called names and basically abused. Perhaps that should tell you something about this site.
Without going into the whole melodrama about what happened yesterday the only important part is that your site, (I don't say our site because I think the majority of members here would never be so immature and abusive) your site, defaced a news post about a new software release and attacked the software in the comments. That was done before any other conversation began. Your site (and in my opinion, your admins make the actions the official actions of your site) attacked the software in the same news release on another community site, deskmod. That should be enough examples but I could add lots of other specific instances of abuse and name calling I've gotten from miriku. Like I said, I hope you're being sincere.
I make skins and wallpapers. I volunteer as an admin at two sites, LOS and wincustomize. I work as a graphic artist and photographer. And yet, I feel like my opinion is not welcome here, not just disagreed with, but seriously not welcome and open to public flogging. I have no interest in posting my work here as the site represents itself now. I took the link to this site off my personal site because I don't want to send anyone here, knowing they may be insulted or offended by the admins here.
The forums here are pretty open. We try to let people speak as freely and openly as possible...but we expect (as admins) to be given the same privilege. There is no reason, simply because we are moderators, that we should "be on our best behavior"
As far as "rude treatment" is concerned: would you question it as much if a normal user was to have posted something to that effect?
Remember, we're all people here and we're all subject to our tempers flaring from time to time. The key thing to remember is that in the end, the argument probably wasn't that important anyway.
I appreciate your well thought out and legitimate complaints.
I suppose I'm just a little confused as to how you feel that your opinion is unwelcomed here. We give users the ability not only to freely post comments to user submissions, but to also freely discuss via a forum environment (though I'll admit this may be one of the worst forum scripts I've ever encountered).
Please feel free to contact me via email or via this forum to further discuss your issues.
"Shut the fuck up bmetelsky and go away" is, in my estimation, verbal abuse and I would feel the same way regardless of who was saying it and where. Speaking freely and openly would be fine, without resorting to insults. And yes, I do expect the admins of any site to set the tone. If the tone you want here is negativity, rudeness, and hostility, then change nothing.
Yocreoenel, If I knew for sure I would have indicated that. I stated that I cannot find the thread to reference to. I also am saying that it did happen. Additionally, I am saying that it is that type of behavior practiced by more than one admin. that set the tone here. Look around the site today. Read some of the other posts on the boards here. Anybody who spends any time here should be able to pick up on it. Again, I am only responding to the intent of the post here - what would I like to see change. I am hoping that this is constructive vs. destructive feedback.
Like I said, I expect to be called names and dragged into a flame war just by showing up here. I like Widowblinds. I think it's an awesome program and I've been using it and making skins for it for three years. I also tend to jump in and support an argument I think has a just side. Today, at this site, that makes me (in the words of miriku) a Stardock kiddie, a corporate groupie, uhm... help me out here miriku, I know there was a lot worse but my mind isn't recalling the true nastiness here.
So perhaps my opinion is not unwelcome, maybe it's actually just what you need to fuel a flame war so you can get more people coming here to watch the insults. That's my perception of custo today. If nothing's happening here, go to deskmod and pick a fight to get some action over here. If I'm wrong, you'll make some changes. If nothing changes, I'll assume I got it right. Meanwhile, I don't need to hang out here and watch the decline. I used to feel like custo had character, its own identity, its own niche. There used to be some real abusive comments from users here, but the admins had enough class to stay above that sort of thing and moderate it when it got out of hand. Now it's the admins that insult the skinners and start the fights.
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. The reason admins are expected to be above the basest level of abuse is to allow others opinions to have a voice. The other problem is that as an admin, your opinion carries more weight and more credibility than the average guy. Using that extra weight to slander a company and an individual is a lot worse than just unprofessional. There's no reason to ever think that this is a Stardock issue. Why not NextStart or Hoverdesk or any of the other sharware apps that are represented here? As you should know, they're next... and what are you left with then?
I completely agree that the daily flamewars present here in the forums need to stop.
It seems that the recent argument between Brad of Stardock (and his supporters) and some of the admins around here is what's fresh in people's minds as to what annoys them about custo.
I did not participate in this argument as I really don't care: if you like windowblinds and want to use it, fine with me...if you don't, ok. Our admins are people just like anyone else and are entitled to their opinions. If they choose to dislike stardock and their software that is their business. If they choose to voice their opinion of stardock software, that is also their choice.
However, you do have an excellent point about our opinions as admins. Should they be taken with any more weight than the average person? No...probably not. We're just as fallable as the next guy. Are they taken with more weight? Probably so..and I think that's something we're definitely going to have to take into consideration.
I really appreciate your feedback...I'd certainly qualify you among those who have legitimate complaints.
Apart from individual complaints about specific problems from admins / users there are a few generalized points that I have noticed while using this site. I admit Im a bit of a newbie here, only having learned of this place about a month ago. But as I saw it, I really liked seeing the new content flow in and I began to visit the site multiple times a day. As I watched the content come in day after day, I would always read the reviews.. at first I felt like I might start posting my own reviews, but as I started to see more and more people (users and admins alike.. I wont state any names though) utterly flaming the creator of a peice of work here (Not necissarily through cussing, but through abusive remarks, and I use that term strongly) I felt that it wasnt worth my time to post in most situations. Sometimes I do though, but when I submit something or post a review, I have to take whatever that brings with it. May it be people flaming me, cussing at me, making sarcastic jokes at my expense.. the list goes on. The points that I mentioned in the beginning of this post that I would like to see worked on by the admins of this site are as follows: 1. When reviewing a screenshot, wp, skin or anything.. As long as it isnt a blantant rip, please do not insult the user. That can only lead to the creator getting angry and causing more problems down the line. Even if its the most disgusting thing you've EVER seen in your life, and you puked all over your brand new keyboard because of the pure ugliness of the peice of art being reviewed, just state what you find wrong with it. Give criticism in a polite way, that can be used by the author to hone their skills and create something that is truly beautiful. Perhaps even offer assitance in form of short tutorials or links to a site with tutorials. 2.When replying to a rude user wether in reviews or in the forums, maintain a state of politeness. The admins are the people who administrate a site, as their name states, and thus should run the site in a user friendly way. If someone is going to be abusive, either remove their post entirely and remain silent, or reply politely that they shouldnt do what they did, and unless they apoligize or reword it in a friendly manner their post will be removed. 3. As you said in one of your posts, we are all human here and do have flaring tempers sometimes and that is understandable, as I have them too.. (although I am a cyborg.. but thats besides the point :) In a case like that.. hit the power swith and go relax. But dont take it out on the users, even if they are being rude and abusive, because if you react in the same way, then you are no better than they are, if not worse, because you will just be throwing dynamite into the roaring flames.
I couldn't agree with your more as to the way things "should" be handled. The problem I have is that looking through, I don't really see many examples of what you're getting at.
Oh sure, I see lots of user comments flaming the creators of works...but I rarely see an admin comment that goes out of its way to insult the creator of the piece. If something we post IS insulting...I recommend you try looking at it a bit differently and you'll probably see the little hint of sarcastic humor that we try to toss into some of our reviews (I'm a perpetraitor of this, especially).
I do, however, understand that this isn't much consolation...to say "look at it another way." I think more what I'm getting at is don't be so quick to judge things said by the admins as personal attacks.
Speaking as a moderator, I can tell you that it's often VERY difficult to find the right words for a review and sometimes we receive works that are so utterly laughable that the occasional "wtf?!?!" review will come out. All I can say is that if we've somehow insulted you by this, we do apologize. I don't think any of us are setting out to personally attack our users (after all, what is the site without the users). Usually, we are assuming that someone's gonna get a little laugh out of it. Sure, maybe it's not the most professional approach, but we're not running a corporation here...this is essentially a site for hobbyists.
I thank you that you came out and apoligized saying "All I can say is that if we've somehow insulted you by this, we do apologize" and gladly, I can say that I was never really hit with this.. and as of late, I havnt seen much evidence of what I spoke of either.. but as I remember, during my early days here, I remember seeing ALOT of people judged VERY harshly with rude and disheartening comments by Miriku mostly.. I hadnt seen many other admins do anything as nasty as what he did.. in fact, I didnt know any other admins besides Miriku and rkenshin existed until just a little while ago. And I dont mean to flame miriku, he is cool and has a great sense of humor and Ive seen proof of that in alot of places here on custo, but I will also say that, in my opinion, he has a bit of a harsh reviewing method, and rarely offers much in terms of constructive criticism. I believe that reviews should be used to help make the author either proud by saying good things about their work, or give them a multitude of opinions with which to use to help develop their work or hone their skills further. Many reviews I see by users dont do this, and the same applies to admins. The users is a less important issue, as many users will review something, and the few that give constructive criticism are helpful. In the case of the admins, since they are listened to over most users, they should be the ones to give the real constructive criticism and try to HELP the user as much as possible.. and their criticism will be especially useful as they have such extensive experience in reviewing.
i'm glad that i can finally sit down a read a civilized, polite thread. thanks guys, and i mean that sincerely.
but i would, however, like to point out what as i see as a flaw in some of the logic being used here. lightstream, as well as some other users, keeps mentioning that the admins represent this site, they are responsible for the site, they set the tone, etc.
on the other hand, i argue that admins are just regular people and shouldnt be held to higher standards than other users. you say that since their opinions carry more weight, they ought to be more careful about what they say. but an admin doesnt determine how much weight his comments carry -- the people choose that. so if they decide to listen to an admin more than another user, thats entirely their decision.
furthermore, it us unfair to criticize a site based on several specific actions performed by several specific admins. at the same time that one admin is causing a flame war, another admin could be giving a user valuable advice. so, when you say that the irresponsible behaviour of the admins is ruining this site, that is only looking at part of the situation, and if you look at all of the admins as a whole, and this site as a whole, you might change your opinion.
lightstream, do you feel that everything you do or say at any site represents the views of both LOS and wincustomize? i hope not. so to think that the admins somehow own this site and are for some reason, everything they say represnts this site, is not true.
to say something like this: "Your site (and in my opinion, your admins make the actions the official actions of your site) attacked the software in the same news release" is ludacrous. when you say "your site", this site doesnt even belong to the admins. they are volunteers. secondly, how does one person putting a negative comment in the news post represent the actions of this entire site, which is comprised of thousands of people with differing opinions? for example, the fact that i deleted that comment shows that not everyone at this site has the same viewpoint, including not even all of the admins. so, by your logic, when two admins have conflicting opinions and do opposite actions, then how are you going to choose which actions can be declared as the official actions of this site? are you just going to choose the most negative action? why not look at the postive side of things too?
sorry for ranting, but i really feel that it is unfair to generalize a whole point of view about a diverse site based on a couple actions
Normally I'd agree about it being 'generalizing' except for a few points. When I post something at other sites I don't advertise the fact that I'm an admin. I'm just lightstream (or DavidK) but I also do try to temper my views because I do consider that to some people I represent the sites I work at.
When shoggot was attacking the GUI Olympics I was pissed after a bunch of sites and admins joined his crusade so I quit as an admin before posting my opinions. I didn't want my opinions to reflect on the site or on Chaz. In that case, Chaz wouldn't let me quit.
If I had defaced a news post and attacked a program developer at another site with ADMIN LOS.COM as a sig - I'm sure he would have fired me. So on that point I don't agree. The admins represent the site, especially if they are putting a huge sig to that effect on every post. So in my opinion, custo either agrees totally with their posts or they must disown them publicly.
On the site here there's also no question about it being the site's identity or the site's opinion. I don't think anyone else is confused about that. If you don't agree with the actions then you need to deal with it. Come to a consensus you can all agree on.
Your site is what your admins post. What else is there? If the admins postings here don't reflect the site's feelings then what does? It's not a question of taking only the negative stuff, take it all and put it all together, fine. You still have the negative as part of the site's identity... it's still there and its not like it gets averaged out or something...
at this site we promote invididuality. we are not going to force all of our admins to have the same views or come to a consensus, and we want them to express their different views -- that's what free speech is all about.
so, where on another site an admin's comments may be synonymous with the sites views, i am telling you that here at custo, that's not the case. would it help if we posted a disclaimer for the message boards saying something like:
"customize.org, as a whole, does not necessarily agree nor disagree with the statements made on these messageboards, whether made by admins or other users"
"Your site is what your admins post. What else is there?" well for starters, theres another 20,000 users who arent admins that also help to make this site what it is.
"You still have the negative as part of the site's identity... it's still there and its not like it gets averaged out or something... " so you are saying that there are no positive aspects to this site or what the admins do here to balance the negative aspects? ranking submissions, giving advice, answering questions, etc are all not positive? either i am misinterpreting this point or i have no clue what you regard as positive activity from an admin
well maybe it's that the negative part is so over the top. If I suddenly started swearing at you here and called you names, said I hated you, you'd probably wonder if I was on drugs or something.
I wonder if they're on drugs or something.
Some stuff is inappropriate for someone "in charge" to do. If you don't think that's true... fine - insult me and tell me how much you hate me and I'll stop being reasonable and get back in your face with a similar style. Then tell me it makes no difference and it's just an opinion...
At the end of the day the admins here own, run and maintain the site - whether they want to be elevated to a slightly higher level of perceived 'importance' or not... they are.
Don't get me wrong, but Miruku is the only admin I personally have a problem with... not a big problem, and I do actually have respect for him and all the work he does here... but I can't help get a negative vibe off him most of the time, either that or he's being very sarcastic and should be using the " ;) " symbol a little more in his posts so that people don't misunderstand his humour.
I don't think there's an instant solution, but a little more respect for other people's views, software, art and opinions and just a little more professionalism all round would go a long way in my opinion.
darksheer.. If you are on the level about talking about issues relating to the handling of this site, and the conduct of the admins who [like it or not] represent this site, either by policy direction or 'editing' capability, I'll not bother to assist in public flaming, but you could try my email.... martinp@smart.net.au
For the record, so you know my 'factional bona fides'... Paul Martin Jafo [Admin...Wincustomize.com] [Admin...Pixtudio.com] [Admin...Pixelprintz.com] [Senior Member...Deviantart.com]
I have to agree with wraybling on a lot of his points. A lot of users seem to voice opinions that they dislike one admin or another...or maybe even a couple admins (heh...some people don't like me, I don't blame 'em!)
I urge you to not generalize the site as the "slum of the community" due to your difference of character with one or two admins. Please voice your opinions of the actions of a few admins rather than the actions of the site in general.
I do understand users' point that the admins "speak for the site." To this, you are probably right. But to be fair, we honestly haven't looked at it this way. We always view our own statements as individual statements and opinions (user or admin). Is this something we need to change? Maybe. It is something all of us, as admins and users, need to have a closer look at? Yes.
The CEO thread has been deleted. (if you hadn't noticed)
Let me offer that as a gesture of good will.
let me say these things: My participation in the whole GUIOlympics fiasco was definitely a mistake. I admit that. (and this is all i'm going to say to explain my point, i do not want to be dragged into another flame war, and i won't be) Brad did not. I don't find his behavior (regardless of what has been done) acceptable as the CEO of a company. If you claim that admin staff should be held to higher standards than normal users, he should be held accountable in spades. I've largely tried to be mature about this, and avoid anything that has to do with Brad, i don't visit his sites, i don't talk about him in any other scenario, i only visited the GUIO site a handful of times. I have -nothing- to do with brad. And i would like to keep it that way.
Now for my peice about the artists. I don't care about windowblinds. I don't care in the sense, that it is a medium for art. I have a strong distaste for the creator, but that does not mean that i hate windowblinds. Treetog and co. have made some skins for WB that make me drool - absolutely beautiful peices of work, and i begrudge them no ill-will for skinning WB. And this is the important part here; There is a person out there that i dislike, that association ends there. People can skin windowblinds all they want, i'll support them in their creations, but i will not support StarDock.
Is that an acceptable explination of what i have been doing? If not please, ask questions, point out why you think its not. Thats all i ask.
One of the last times this happened, I think it was when treetog was driven away from the site, there was a long thread like the CEO one that was deleted. It was deleted after a lot of very sane comments were made that basically made custo look really bad.
Re writting history in your favor again I see....
The thing you have to realize is you make these attacks, you start a fight, and then you clean it up afterwards and get all nicey to your members and pissy to the people you started the fight with in the first place. Like now it's - we're just nice guys and look how we're being picked on by those cruel corporate shills.
I would never post my work here because I don't want to send someone here when you are capable of this kind of two faced cowardly assault. It's like getting ganged up on.
This is (supposedly) a skinning site. But CERTAIN skinners and developers are "hated" here. Others, some of the best around, are not "hated" they're just assaulted. But they would be welcome here. Can't you see this makes no sense?
Ban frogboy, ban me, ban anyone that doesn't agree with you. Take all shareware off the site. Stop re writting things after the fact to try to make yourselves look better. Be honest about it and DO IT. Be yourselves, you have the power.
Whoa dude, clean up? I haven't re-written anything. I've stated my piece. Where do you disagree with what i've said? I haven't started -any- fighting. i've said, i participated in the fighting. i shouldn't have. I'm sorry, and i won't in the future, but i can't offer anything more than that.
And i'm actually terribly insulted to be called two-faced. Honesty is definitely one of the things that i pride myself on. I've told you flat out, i do not like brad. Are there still WB skins here? YES. What is the problem? Have i attacked you? No. My beef is with brad, and not you.
And once again i have never said anything mean or derogatory to any skinner out there about their work. Really the only mess i've been involved with involves brad. So could i ask you to not generalize who i am by one mistake? I'm not two-faced, and i -never- look for fights.
lightstream, skinners are always welcome here. i would love it if treetog came here and posted his work. and hey, if you ever posted your stuff here and contributed positively to this site, i'd welcome that too. but what i dont like is when someone only visits this site during a flame war solely for the opportunity to attack it. when you come to this site only to criticize it, looking for trouble, people are naturally going to become defensive and "assault" you (plus, logic will tell you that the majority of visitors here like this site, or else why would they be here? thats why they might defend it and you might feel like you're outnumbered or "getting ganged up on").
but i think its safe to say that no one here will hate someone for their skins. if someone is "hated" or "assaulted", it will most likely be for their behaviour, not their artwork.
Look - I'm not trying to insult you guys, I'm trying to get you to see what you look like from the outside. Basically, we don't want this site to be a place where you the admins get to tell the world you "hate" somebody. This is a skinning site. Skinning is fun, it's a pastime that (if you make skins) takes an enormous amount of time, which is done for free , because we "love" to do it. This site is a place where we can post these time-consuming creations to share with other people.
We don't give a fuck who you hate. Keep it to yourself. Do it in some dark alley but keep your "hate" off of this site. (that's my opinion)
As admins, spreading all this shit on this site you are asking for your members to agree, you are making it almost a policy, almost like it's a site mandate.
Hi, I'm Dave and I hate Brad. okay - you're in...
Skinning is what it's all about. You drive some of the best skinners away from this site.
No one gives a shit who you hate or why. If you're into hating people go somewhere else and do it. Let's make this site for skins again. And it's not just Pod and some other admin saying "it's the other guys - I don't feel that way" doesn't make it any less a custo.org problem. Maybe you should all quit, take some anger management courses and let some new people run the site... I love you guys... don't hate me... ;)
well said. i cant disagree with any of that, for once. the focus here should be skinning. its fine to voice opinions, have healthy debates about programs, but there is no need for such hate on this site. i'm not going to convince pod and miriku to like brad or to use windowblinds, and it's fine to express what you dont like about windowblinds or something of that nature, but there's no need to take it further in the public domain. thanks lightstream
Lightstream, you've never been in a conversation with me outside of all this stardock nonsense. I assure you, anger-management isn't an issue here. I don't bring up brad. My life is not justified by my distaste for him. Like i said, if he never knocked on my door, never visited the sites that i frequent, i can assure you that he would never be brought up in a conversation by me.
That said:
You're right. And you'll also notice that i don't run the site.
Now I gotta take advantage of global warming while it's over the northwest and mow my lawn before the sun goes away.... then finish a windowblinds skin ;)
:: What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy? I Don't know and I don't care! :: / my opinions are of my own free will, and in no way shape or form represent the staff and management of customize.org
I think the site is perfect. I found it 2 weeks ago and have ZERO complaints. Like someone said earlier, if you submit a piece of crap, you can only expect comments much the same.
I've had 1 vulgar comment from lefreak669 I checked out his comments to others.. He must have had something against me, or a split personality kicked in at the time. Dios took care of the matter very quickly. I feel the admins are just doing their jobs, and kick ass at it. *admin ass-kissing*
