I'm having very (sad) mixed emotions about my country. I feel that our media controls our patrionism and our media is becoming our government. If the media did not exist for any country, what would happen to your country? Would a heartful love and/or strong confidence exist for one another?
BTW, what is the deal with the sudded raise of gas prices and quotes such as, "I don't think President Bush will be re-elected after this...". Who controls this contry. If freedom exists, then why is our countries president so misbelieving. Do we really agree with him, and does he represent us well? What is he going to do about these current events? What is this going to do to our childrens understanding of the meaning of "LOVE and PEACE"?
03:54 am, Wednesday, September 12, 2001 (8 years ago)
What is this going to do to our childrens understanding of the meaning of "LOVE and PEACE"?
Who are we to blame, when our childrens understanding of us is completely misunderstood. War does not create peace, is only aggrivates the idea. The only way to force peace, that I have seen, is to completely obliverate the lives of thousands of people. Then there is no other choice, but peace. And unfortuantly, the US has the opportunity to take out any country in the blink of an eye.
Peace cannot be forced. It must grow over time. Military action therefore cannot lead to peace. ANyway, better have faith in your president, after all, you (the people) elected him, right?
Ahem craeonics: I wont even get into the whether or not we actually elected bush argument.
And the bottom line ist that we probably wont take any real action about this. Doing so might agrivate someone in some country and well..our government just cant have that.
Bottom line. I think nothing will be doe due to beurocracy. And then you just wait how long it takes for other terrorist groups to think they can get away with shit like this.
-DariusX-
(DM): On the hill ahead you see a gazebo (Player): Is it moving? (DM): No. (Player): How big is it? (DM): About 20 feet tall. (Player): I draw my sword and kill the evil gazebo!
It seems to be time for our Great People to push aside our emotions of fear and sadness and rise to the occasion like our forefathers so many years ago arose too. Time, and time again, has proven that our nation will not stand idly by while our brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers, the innocent, are having the very freedoms of witch our great nation was founded upon forced from there grasps and very lives.
Isn't it convenient that this bombing is against "civilsation" as many western leaders have put it. It is a comment that classifies anything other than our western model as "uncivilised". As shocking and tragic as this bombing is, there can can be no doubt that America, and Britain, my home country, have in many ways provoked this action.
America conducts it's foreign policy with unbelievable arrogance. In recent months it abandoned a convention on racism to avoid reparation, abandoned a world treaty regarding chemical weapons manfacture due to concerns that it will hinder industry and threatened to ignore the ABM treaty, for the sake of it's defence sheild idea.
Due to this there is great ill feeling toward America in Europe, who are tired of the frontiersman-like attitude with which America regards it allies.
As for the middle east, America supplies arms to Israel which has conducted a low scale war against the palestinians for the last 50 years.
Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect?, Well, America bankrolled his and the Mujahadin's war against the Russians during their occupation of Afghanistan in the 80's. When the puppets then refused to dance to a western tune sanctions were imposed on that country.
America (and the West) continue to enforce crippling sanctions crippling sanctions on Afghanistan and Iraq, measures, which though designed to displace dictatorial political structures (and to protect oil supply), have merely suceeded in adding to the poverty of many in the middle east.
Many young men grow up in the middle east and see the west as the utimate source ot their torment. Without hope, why not use your life as weapon against those who you hate.
A terrible tragedy, yes, but remember, western so-called civilisation is not alone on this planet. While we play our computer games, wear our Gap jeans and supp or expensive coffee, millions suffer to bring us our luxury.
Bagpuss, you say: "America (and the West) continue to enforce crippling sanctions crippling sanctions on Afghanistan and Iraq, measures, which though designed to displace dictatorial political structures (and to protect oil supply), have merely suceeded in adding to the poverty of many in the middle east. "
I say: Take a look at the palace(s) that Saddam lives in and tell me that it is truly America that oppresses the Middle Eastern people.
While I'm sure there are many foreign policies that the US has screwed up on, we in no way oppress other countries. Take a look at our history and you will see how much aid we have given to not only our allies but those countries that don't agree with our ideals. If we asked for the money back from the countries we have helped, our National Debt would be seriously less than it's current figure.
You call us arrogant, well fine. Look where this so called arrogance has gotten this great nation. Even after the world's greatest tragedy (outside of Hiroshima/Nagasaki), we still stand strong. We can make it through this without your help. Which raises another issue..."Will you help or just talk about it?"
Your comment of: "Due to this there is great ill feeling toward America in Europe, who are tired of the frontiersman-like attitude with which America regards it allies. " makes me happy that we won the Revolution.
Knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
I'm sorry, but your words prove my point about the short sighted arrogance.
"The world greatest tragedy since Hiroshima" you say. What it this, a competition? Go make that argument to the people of Somalia, Ethiopia, and the 1 million victims of the Killing fields in Cambodia!
Don't get me wrong, Britain has just a much to be ashamed of as any country, but after years of dealing with terrorism, it's obvious to many here that a 'war' will do nothing more than fuel hatred. Diplomacy is the answer. Many of us in Britain have grown up with terrorism as a fact to life, many people have been directly or indirectly affected. My own home town, Manchester, was bombed six years ago. By some miracle no life was lost, but the rebuilding of the town has only just been completed.
I like many others just worry that America, in its justified anger, may inadvertantly end up punishing more innocent people with its military might.
As for Saddam, yes of course he oppresses his people and yes he lives in a Palace. So who pays for the sanctions against his country? The people of course! Sanctions give life to his regime due to the fact that he can blame (with some justification) all of the ills of the region on the U.S.
As for oppression, ALL the west oppresses third world countries. Do you know the Starbucks often has a markup of more than 1000% on the coffee it buys from poverty stricken farmers in south America? Did you know that many third world countries apportion sizeable chunks of their GDP just to pay the INTEREST on loans from the west?
All I'm arguing for is PERSPECTIVE. In politics there is simply no such thing as good or evil, despite our willingness to believe the opposite.
'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" Mohandas K. Gandhi, a man who taught my country many important and humiliating lessons.
So tell me what you would do instead of sanctioning?
Bottom line here is the people responsible for this must be held accountable. Your words suggest that the United States actions in the past are solely responsible for this incident. While you call us arrogant, I call you ignorant. Anyone in there right mind can see that no matter what sanctions we have done in the past is no excuse for the senseless killing of thousands within a matter of minutes.
I am in no competition with you on what tragedy is the greatest of all time. Your examples show me that you want it to be a competition. As for these examples, I believe the US has had an active role (more so than any other nation) of helping the people in each one of these situations.
You make it sound like America is the reason for poverty in this world. American politics are not to blame here. Corporations are to blame, and these are corporations around the world. Our government has little control on the end price of a product.
I do not question your intelligence or your sense of humanity, but my interpretation of words tells me that you believe we should not go after these people and hold their supporters responsible. Do you think you would even be alive in Britain if the US did not react to the attack on Pearl Harbor or storm the beaches of Normandy? If that were the case you would be speaking German and oppressing anyone that was not part of " the master race".
I am not a war monger but if actions are not taken we will eventually all be living under someone elses ideals.
As for the oppression of the Middle Eastern people, maybe they should focus on better leadership. Leaders that will guide there people to peace not ones that will try to overthrow their neighboring countries. These actions are what lead to sanctions and sanctions from the majority of world powers not just the US, I might add.
Knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
So the United States is a truly altruistic country.... Was that before, or after the virtual obliteration of 500 nations? The US is no better or no worse than any other country on this planet. It just happens to be bigger than the others. What WAS their reason for the reluctance to get involved in the 2 World Wars? A quirk of international time zones meant Australia entered the Second World War 10 hours before the UK.....and we were further away.
Just an interesting comment made by a spokesman for the PLO....in the last 11 months, the number of Palestinians killed in their struggle for existence, if factored up to match the US population would be 85,000 dead. The degree of grief and loss and emotional impact would be equivalent....but just not covered as well by CNN.
You two guys having a bitch-fight over who is superior, whatever....just wake up and smell the roses.... Better yet, wake up and smell the stench of reality. Every country does and has done things that it should be ashamed of.....excluding absolutely none.
America has just lost its innocence. The entire world, to differing degrees, and for differing reasons is culpable.... For allowing/creating/being/justifying/harbouring/promoting/not eliminating/defusing/disarming/dis-enfranchising terrorists and terrorism.
Treat the cause. Excise the disease. Remove the epidemic.
Don't suck and blow about how great you think you are.
And never be blinded by propaganda dressed as patriotism. That creates extremists.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
I do indeed agree that all effort must be made to stop terrorism. But that can only be truly successful if we look at the root cause of hatred towards the west.
It's not good enough simply to attack the nearest territory that may harbour terrorists, we have to realise that our actions, politcal or corporate have consequences around the world.
America has indeed lost its innocence, and despite the loss of life and the terrible sufferning in New York, something good has to come of this. This should not be used as an oppurtunity fo nationalistic sword rattling, it should instead be used as a means of promoting multilateral action and understanding. In the 21st century, no country, not even the most powerful on the planet, can afford to ignore the rest of the world and attempt to stand alone.
America has learnt this lesson in the most cruel way.
The above article is very honourable, but was written more than 25 years ago in a very specific context: America getting out of Viet-Nam. While just about every one was bashing on the USA, Mr. Sinclair decided somebody should stand up and defend them. That was in 1973, and while some of it was untrue then, most of it is untrue today. The United States is NOT the only country helping others around the World. Whenever something bad happens in the world, Canada is always there to help, and the US too. Canada just happens to have less than 10% of the population of the United States, we doN,t have the same money and the same means. But we're still there and we help as much as we can.
But the one most eloquent I read was from Jafo: "The US is no better or no worse than any other country on this planet. It just happens to be bigger than the others. "
Religious propaganda and beliefs should not be the basis of any war! Lack or respect and responsibility should be the only form of resolutions. What good is religion if you do not respect faith.....
To Bagpuss, I offer my apologies for my harsh words and my dismissal of his beliefs. I still feel that America has not brought this on upon themselves but can certainly understand that past actions have not lead to the best resolve.
To JAFO, I offer my thanks for slapping me in the face and getting me back on the correct path and not the roads of accusation.
Now is a time for unity and justice. Now is not a time for fighting amongst ourselves.
The DefaetCON Newsletter raises an important point: Religious propaganda and beliefs should not be the basis of any war!
I myself am agnostic and I myself get offended and feel uneasy when others speak (what they believe to be) the word of their God. I truly believe if you remove the religious factor from all foreign and domestic policy within not just Western ideaology but from Middle Eastern and other ideaologies, many a war would be avoided. I am not saying for people to throw out their religious beliefs. I just believe that religious teachings are too widely misinterperated and do not belong in the governing of the masses. They should be used to govern ones self with their own God.
Many of you may not agree with me on this and I respect your disagreement.
Knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Religous belief should be the basis of a war if this religion (Muslim Fundamentalism: not Muslim) believes that your country is stanic. Especially if thos religon also believes if they kill 40,000 Americans and die in the process they go to heaven. So I do disagree with DefeatCon. But i agree with the whole hackers unite. but very far fetched. Hackers can't bring peace. Hackers can destroy countries but can not make peace.
Thousands of Americans and many others were murdered Tuesday. We can gather around a tree and sing Kumbaya and hope for peace or we can go out and try to make sure this never happens again anywhere.
Count me in the second group. We can't yack about anti-religious bigotry and expect something good to happen. This is a time for action.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. The young are chosen to fight because they have no understanding of death. The old send the young to fight their fights because they do.
Demannu, its painful reality that governments get partially controlled through the various media sources... there are no exceptions on this. Every country has this kind of problem...
i'm not so updated on the entire mather, im not trying to follow it cause im trying to ignore war totally cause i know that total peace will never be accomplished on this god forgoten planet. i'm speakeing from own experience of coming from a country in wich ww1 and ww2 started and that religion war accured wich made me leave it: yugoslavia. to explain the entire thing and why there's always been war and how this entire universe works accually is pretty easy. if you see deep under the surface teh big picture and into the logic of it all there lies the number "2". this litlle bugger causes everything. war will always be cause there will always be 2 oposite sides that will always have at least something to argue about. this is how our world functions. there will never be a solution cause there always must be 2. positive and negative. weaker and stronger. what happend in america is really sad but its just one more thing the the human will do in its universal stupidity through time.it's not right to compare this dissaster to that dissaster, this war to that war i mean its all the same every time. one side wins the other loses and it goes on and on and on like a chain reaction. it WILL never stop. no democracy no komunisim no religion will ever find a solution really cause there is no solution. if america goes to war so what it happend before it will happen again and again. i belive the bible says if somepne slaps you turn the other cheak. no one in this world will do that accually. who ever wrote that fairytale had a dream but i dont think that even he would do what he wrote.pride will eventually destroy this world and when there is nothing left the number 1 will finaly be and only then will there be peace. politics, religion, law, freedom of speach, thousands of "different" languages, country borders, money, personal property, everything causes indifferences between people and by that war. the human race started to go the wrong way from the first begining and we'll never get back on the right track.
uhhh, Chimpy Pimpy has a point- no matter how childish it is. 50,000 dead is something the U.S. would never stand for... Really. After Pearl Harbor, wich was nothing compared to this, the U.S. entered WW2- forever changing the world. As a result of the U.S. joining the war, German Power ended, as did Italian, the Soviets gained power, Japan got nuked twice and lost a shitload of power, the Cold War began, the world lived in fear of being destroyed entirely, Cuba became Soviet, As did China, England built nucs, and Iraq built chemical weaponry, Iraq moves into Quwait, America moves into Iraq- pissing off some Muslim Fundamentalists, These Muslim Fundamentalists got super pissed and seperated from there counter-parts: Muslims. They killed for Ahla. They filled their children with hatred for the United States and all of it's agents of demonic practices. All this while 20 years before all the Middle East gets super pissed at Israel- U.S.'s ally. Israel whooped some ass. And the Arab countries around Israel could not keep their promise to the palistinians (who in my opinion don't exist. Like saying I am a Carthageon- whom Rome took care of) that they would win Israel over for the Palestinians. when many of the arabic countries around Israel signed peace treaties- the Palestinians got very pissed indead. So we have 2 groups extremely pissed at the United States- Palestine and Osama ben Ladin's gang. So what? we have terrorists? we can live with it. The destruction of naval ships and embassy's don't matter that mcuh do they? The U.S. still does not go after ben Laden. Americans being killed everyday in Israel? In the words of our almighty president "I am involved". and then after 30 years of ignoring the Mid-East and the terrorist problem- boom. And that is where we are... boom. this story ends here. Everything except communism. The path of terror willp end. And if it doesn't well... the next part of my story will be a nuclear bomb in the middle of NYC.
Something will happen- wether it be war or a radioactive Manhattan. It will happen.
"Something will happen." No freakin' shit. The day you see a radioactive Manhattan is the day you will see the end of the world. Every square inch of the world.
no actually... a day you see a radioactive Manhattan is when this group of people (the whole group inot just this org.) continues to live. If they go another ten years, they will[/I] have a nuclear bomb. What makes you think that these people wouldnt have set off a nuclear bomb in the middle of Manhattan if they had one? They would have. Not that far-fetched. Not far-fetched at all. The minute you understand how these people think is the minute you realise that they are a threat to all of mankind. A person who will die to kill as many people as he can will kill 11,000,000 people. Those hijackers definately would have set off a nuclear bomb had they had one.
Has anyone ever thought that Mr Bush may be the Anti-Christ? ~lol~ I am sure he is doing the BEST that he can. If this makes situations worse its on his head not ours, remember that we all live in a world created apon a foundation of greed and jelousy. This has not changed at all. Dont forget that we live in a world that is full of hate. As much as I would like there to be peace and love there just is noway for it to happen when we are all imperfect and are under the rule of a differant entity we ourselves cannot even see. Have faith!
By true definition, the anti-christ will be the last pope who disproves and crumbles the catholic church, which is why they call him the anti-christ. (Or cool guy) depends on how you look at it. So no, i doubt Bush is the anti-christ.
Most people are missing the point. Bush isnt the one who is starting a war. A act of war was made on the USA. People who say that we need peace and retaliating is just going to make it worse, are mistaken. All it takes for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing. A war was declared on the American people, and we HAVE to fight back. We didnt do anythign right away in WW2 about Hitler. We kept biding out time and it got worse. We have to retaliate quickly, and strongly. We have MANY alies in this war and it will be won. BTW, i inlisted for the US Marines and an shipping out late October. I'm willing to die for this country adn what this country stands for, and i wont let this country be pushed around by these misled terorists who are fighting a lost cause.
By the way Paul, I meant to tell you that I have always regarded your comments and opinions on different topics with great respect, but they say that it's in times of crisis that you can discover who the great people are. Let me tell you that you are among them. You are the one person from whom I have read the most mature and thoughtful comments in the past few days. You have emerged in my opinion as one of the greatest man I have had the chance to meet on these message boards. Thank you!
