we don't need no education

Aren't they being just tad tad bit too harsh on the US? They make it sound as if all Americans are stupid or something?

"Don't make me get the goat rope out"

Hardly, I think that's a pretty eye-opening article. I think there is some truth to what was written and I don't agree that it depicts Americans as being stupid. It states that the people in charge wanted to produce a working colony of sorts and their children would be the one's to receive the true education so that they can continue to run things the way they had "designed" them to be run. Pretty interesting stuff I thought.

___________
...:: ][ walk through ]|V|[indfields ::...

yea ..ive kinda known this for a while ..my dad tells me this all the time. k.. well to start, my dad owns his own company. he has about 40 or 50 employees. for each employee working for him, my dad makes about $30/hour.. $25/hour of this goes to his employees leaving him with $5. however, when you mulitply this by 40 or 50 you get $200-250/hour which is 8 to 10 times as much as his employees are making. and he doesnt even have to work the 8 hour day they do, they do it all for him. so why doesn't everyone do this? it wouldnt work ..there needs to be the 50 employees to the 1 employer. so, as that article says, the american education system trains students to become employees.. and about 99 out of 100 accept that. the other 1% (my dad) goes on to "use" these drones to make more money for themselves. america knows about this, and it shows in the way the american education system is setup. just my 2 cents.. sorry for the lengthy post.

"If you still got bullets, keep shooting"
http://unclear.ne0tech.net/

that guy is a loser with too much time on his hands

Very interesting Unclear.

"Don't make me get the goat rope out"

the united states does a lot of things wrong. the baby boomer age controlling our government is whats the problem. cant wait till they all die and our open minded generation is in charge.

open minded? yeah right.. america is one of the biggest and most racist countries ever with a great mass longing of the glory days when they could do lynchings on a daily and fly thier confederate swatika flags with "pride"

(`'· .¸*¤*¸.·-//: - vision wear

Waiting. Who isn´t doing it. Waiting for better times. Until we are on turn! Look at us now. Germany is in this generation now what you´re speaking of ere.mite. I never would go into politics. Who wants to? I experienced it some days ago. I have some friends who are members of local parties. There have been votings for whatever.. i cannot remember it. Nobody was intersted.

People always shout about politicians and what they do. But imagine you would be the big one? Would you really be the big one? That one that has to fear every second because he could be shot. Because he never knows if what he is doing is right? That one that has the whole responsibilty?

It´s really not an easy job. You´ve to do things everybody could agree. And the compormises that turning out everytime are the result of this system that will destroy itself. Huh. That sounds hard. But yes i think about it like i said.

Nobody will ever listen to what i am saying. But we NEED to go back. Back to the ground, to the base. We don´t need to have money. We don´t need to own countries. What does it mean today to be a german? My parents could be from there or there. I don´t count much on traditions. It´s what made us what we are. People thinking it is good what we do. It is good because someone told us it is. We have a good feeling doing things. Equal if they´re really right or not.

Just a person with a lot time on his hands can say this? Do you really think like this. Why do i have so much time? Is it because my parents have a house? Is it because they´ve more money than others and their little imrik shouldn´t work so much? No. It´s because i shit on money.

This system was and is wrong. From the beginning. It made us bad. It made us thinking we´re right and what we call improvement is important and more knowledge and more intelligence is important.

A person from the 12th century had a knowledge of a usually daily newspaper nowadays. Sorry for all those "thought-jumps"... but if you think we do better in the present. We have better medical services. We have not as much problems as they had. No ... we don´t have the problems they had. But we have problems nobody would like to look at.

everything will be better...

If you still feel like: "What did Imrik just say?" Leave me alone as the lucky guy with new pants and go ahead.

Sorry for all the typos.. it is late

hahaha good point max. open minded? does that mean we support homosexuality?? if so u can cram it back up your ass.
u know the first 5 or six posts actually sounded intelligent. o yah, wynton, i agree

-when the physical turns digital-

@Max, How true it is.
That is true, but in fact it is not ment to make you smart, most of the studends are dumb as hell, but maybe that could have changed in the early days of childhood, (IE k to 2 grade) if they acctulay teached us, not just babysat the children.
I would like to think of myself as being very smart, but what do you know? they put me in all the dumb as a rock classes, making me dumb, b/ I couldnt learn the more advanced matrerial my brain wanted. So now that I am almost done with HS, I am doing the classes/material I should have been doing long ago (ie, advanced math).
And what is with this hole stressing of English classes? I can read just fine, why must you make me read this filth that you say is "at my reading level" even though I have read FAR more advanced books, that were somewhat good, not like that crap they make me read. BTW, I have (or so they tell me, the liers) a "learning disability" that they say should make me read like crap, but I just can not spell.... bastards and their crap, and NO, that did not hinder any sort of learning for me.
I hate the fact that our educational system is set up for old standards, and does not fit well with smarter students.

the neo-european goverments are the best...goverments like germany (like Imrik siad) and italy...even if they are not the most stable. that's why germany are the leaders in engineering and other "heavy" sciences...

If Wal-Mart is lowering prices every day, how come nothing is free yet?

I'm not gonna touch this one,or else all hell will break lose.

"Don't make me get the goat rope out"

Who cares?

If you still feel like: "What did Imrik just say?" Leave me alone as the lucky guy with new pants i am and go ahead.

Here's my opinion, and I'm writing this as I read.

First, a lot of those quotes look taken out of context. For example, "in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products...manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry." This is made to look like it clearly says that the imposingly evil govt/industry standards will take children and shape them into identical drones. However, in context, this could just as easily have meant that the child is a raw product because it is ready to learn. The govt/industry bit could be reffering to the government keeping a high standard via law, and industries specifying what kind of information children need to learn more of in order to be more likely to get hired. From that quote alone, it is impossible to infer anything but what the author tells us to.

I see that the larger quotes, however, are pretty clear.

I do agree with the sentiment of this article. I will have to read more on the subject now. This could be very enlightening.

Also, Shi_No_Ryuu_XI, I'm going to answer your question with your own words. You asked, "And what is with this hole stressing of English classes?" Well, here's why you need them: "...(IE k to 2 grade) if they acctulay teached us..."

(Translation, for those who attempted to read that sentence: "That is true, but in fact, it is not meant to make you smart. Most of the students are dumb as Hell, but maybe that could have changed in the early days of childhood (I.e., K to 2nd grade), if the had actually taught us, instead of just babysitting the children.")

You're right though, "reading levels" tend to be complete and utter BS.

I think there is a lot to be said FOR the school system. The US school system allows for free, public schooling, or if you are wealthy enough, private schooling. Everyone knows that private schooling is better, simply because of the larger budgets and the fact that there's more money to play around with.

However, for someone to say that the US school system is designed for us to uneducated and docile is completely not looking into the grand scheme of things. The last thing a government should want is an uneducated populus. A few great minds can't provide the necesarry intelligence to advance the entire country and make it the most powerful on earth. The smarter your country is overall, the quicker it can advance and the more powerful your nation becomes.

A quick look at the patents that are held in the US can give us a glimpse into the national intelligence. There are a hell of a lot of good patents that have been made by the average person, that probably had average schooling. There is a reason why the United States is still the most powerful nation. It's not because of ballsy politicians, it's because of our population. In theory, our government represents the wants/needs of its populus. So, in theory, our populus is the strongest populus.

However, there is some truth to that article. There is a lot of work that needs to be done for our school system. I know first hand that it sucks with dealing with really bright students until high school. During elementary school, I spent most of the time alone working on something by myself because I was too advanced for what the class was doing. Our school system does a good job of educating the average kid. But for bright students, or handicapped students, it still needs some help. Thankfully, charter schools are becoming popular. That's what saved me. At least our school system allows for different types of schooling. A charter school (which is free like public schools), and at least in my school district I can go to any school in the district I want to, no questions asked.

In my opinion, the point of that article is completely wrong. Anyone can achieve anything in this country, they just need the drive. The problem that is article should be addressing is that our country as a whole is just lazy. Not the school systems, it's the country that's lazy. We just need the drive to achieve, which a lot of people don't want to have. They are comfortable with where they are.

I clicked the link at the bottom of that page and went to Gatto's website. Look at those crayons at the bottom. That is Photoshopped, right? *sigh*

I dissagree, Dextro. In fact, the only thing you said that I agree with is that alternative schooling methods are the best thing about our education system.

The reasons that we are the most powerful nation (and I want to stress that I realise how egotistical I sound when I use that term) are that we have a really big military of the obedient, that we assume that voting for our favorite elitist means that we are somehow able to give ourselves orders, and that we have lots of weapons. It also helps that we're really big. If power was based on education, than the countries that are constantly outscoring us (that's the majority, by the way) would be more powerful than we are.

I half agree on the laziness thing. Yes, anyone could become anything in this country. The point is that they can't do that specifically because of the education system. If that were the case, than all the people who go through it, but are too lazy to do more, would still acheive their dreams a whole lot more often than they do. You can become anything here, but that is because you can learn the required knowledge and skills outside of the education system, and/or by paying money for a better school or college. That is, in fact, why laziness stops people from succeeding. It is because of the fact that you have to take the initiative and look outside your classroom. I agree with what you said, but I dissagree on how it relates to the point of the website.

No, no, no. The reason the Untied Sates is the most powerful nation in the world is because it has MONEY + a strong military. For those who havent geussed it, MONEY = POWER.

wow...something about education that turned into something about the (american) government...geez.

well, i read that article and it sounds to me like the author is doing what many MANY people who are discontent or who are trying to make others believe that what they are saying is the only and full truth: taking something that someone important said and twisting it to their own means. those quotes that he used are just small ones. several of them seem to glorify education as a way to break out of the shell, to learn how to deal with social situations in a calm and refined manner.

what he doesn't happen to mention, besides the fact that he's talking about the basis of the educational system that was started back around the turn of the 20th century, is anything about the time periods in which the quotes were from. they come from times where there was still little in the way of education for the masses. they come from times of world war. they come from the great industrialists and come at a high point in industrilization. most people weren't even going to school before or after the formal formation of an education system, they weren't required to. up through at least the 1940's education was still something of a privilage in most of the country. few girls were in schools, many students dropped out before even completing high school because they were needed at home, or had to work. personally, i think that we've come a long ways from that early system. school is required, it is a forced social interaction that teaches children how to fare in society and educates them in more than just history, math, science and literature. what is being taught is more diverse than what even our parents had.

but i'm not saying that it doesn't have it's problems. i grew up in a school district that was sub-par when looking at the national standards. and why is that? it is because the average person doesn't think that the education of someone else's child - and sometimes their own - is something that they need to pay for with part of their taxes each year. this leads to school districts being unable to attract better teachers, overcrowding in classrooms when new schools are badly needed, out-dated books and the inability to bring the curriculum up to the levels that are dictated by the current socio-economic situation. this is where the biggest problem is in making americans look uneducated: too many schools are forced to lower their educational ablilities based on the fact that they don't have enough money to provide proper educational materials, etc.

in my experience, too many children are passed through the system because teachers don't want to help them or don't have the time to do so. too many are placed into 'special' programs because a teacher thinks that a student isn't 'smart' enough. too many 'advanced' students are being placed in classes that are remedial to them. i, myself, have been a victim of all of those things: teachers didn't feel like giving me the little bit of extra help i needed in a subject, so another teacher further on thought that i needed to be put in a 'special' class for students who were behind. yet i came out of 13 years of public school having been so bored with it that i shut down my mind while in school.

look around you - whatever country you are in - look at the students around you or think back to when you were in school. how many people do you know who were passed through school just because? how many were bored with school because it presented no challenge to them? look at yoursef, were you one of those people? then think about it. you can't change the education that you've already had, but you can change it for future generations. americans, in particular, need to hop on the ball and try to get schools that have become sub-par up to where they should be.

i know this is long...and that most american readers will fail to read more than the first paragraph or so...but that's because they've been taught by the media that nothing is worth their attention if it can't be fit into a soundbite...however, that is a rant for another time.

apathetic teachers, beaurocracy, and affirmative action. we get rid of these things, and we'd be alot better off. of course, the problem is alot more complex than that, but we have the power to make changes which could dramatically improve education today, but we're not doing it :(

"war cannot be avoided. it can only be posponed to the advantage of others..."

its due to americas size and differences in wealth. the conformity and lack of creativity is evident in ALL schools. america is just too huge to make all the shcools the same.

*star fade*

Thank you very much Karah, well said. obviously youre well informed and educated, but I knew that from your website profile. and yes, it is much more complex than that. I was going to post somthing, but reading the other posts got me so crazy i didnt bother. Its not their fault, its what theyve bet taught to believe. you nailed it Karah.

partially true.. as far as affirmative action goes it was needed and somewhat partially true today thought not in all instances.

(`'· .¸*¤*¸.·-//: - vision wear

*skipping a lot of this because it's got quite long so sorry if I repeat something but... *

The funny thing about this thread is that I was born in Houston and lived there until I was 5, I went to pre-school and that was one thing that set me ahead in the small village school I started at when I got to the UK (Wales). Due to being forced to learn the language and the rural setting for the schools, I thought it was setting me back. After reading this I'm quite glad I spent the rest of my learning time over here.
So from my experience and this thread, the US seem to be good for the pre-school bit, and the UK for the rest.

Unclear, that is quite an interesting idea...

- MooseSkin
Hey, whatever tickles your pickle...

Fenris has just posted the longest post I have ever seen on custo. besides the one that didn't make any sense and got deleted.

*applauds fenris*.

Schools are a conformist factory and the government is a lie! BURN THE BOOKS!!!!

Penis is as a Penis does, so give my Penis a great big hug

"I know this is long...and that most american readers will fail to read more than the first paragraph or so..." -Fenris

"*skipping a lot of this because it's got quite long so sorry if I repeat something but... *" -MooseSkin

Ahahahahaha!

O.K., sorry, I'm done now.

Oh, wait, no I'm not. Sorry about the double-post. I'd edit this in if I could. Anyway, just so you know, I'm American, and I read all of it. So that's 1:1, I think.

I'm only American by birth, by blood and upbringing I'm mostly British, and I usually do read all of threads before posting but this time I couldn't be bothered after 1/2 way.

so that screws up your odds :P

Alright, to account for your randomness, I am now going to make myself four people. 4:1 :Þ

fabbo

mooseskin: rofl!! i was born british and brought up american. o.O guess that screws up the odds too.

"war cannot be avoided. it can only be posponed to the advantage of others..."