i hope nobody makes a element/molecule implode itself. we'd all be stuck in a black hole. it would probably sound like 'B-' because by the time you heard it, youd be dead anyway.
time isn't a linear constant its a part of the fabric of space time. And yes black hole time travel is possible, but only through a spinning black hole...otherwise the tidal forces would rip anything to shreds.
Time travel is only possible forwards. You can never travel backwards in time. Time can only be perceived to travel backwards if the relative speed from your reference point exceeds the speed of light. This kind of makes time travel irrelevant; as to see the future, the risks (and power consumption) are greatly reduced if you just wait to see what happens next.
if anyone once more mentions travel through a black hole i will beat them senseless
it's not a hole. it's a misconception because the english word for it is "hole". i'm really sorry that they chose that and not "black star" or "big huge massive really heavy black object"
a black hole is just a (rather small astronomically) really dense star. nothing magical, nothing mystical. thats it. it's so heavy, as that withing a certain range (r) it's gravitional force (Gm1m2/r*r) created by it's mass (m1) is so huge that a photon (m2) will be pulled back (m2a) with a force greater then the change in force (m1m2 dr/dt) due from the photon moving away from the black star
ie, it's photons act like a tennis ball that you try to throw into orbit. they fall back down.
so light cant leave. so it's black. but it's not a hole. it's quite definitely there.
dig?
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
You mean my wall isnt a vortex to another dimension. Damn. Besides isnt the time travel argument pretty moot since youd be strched out to s string of sub atomic particles when you withing a given range of it. I meant i dont think a strin of sub atomic particles really cares what time it is. :)
hehe... the ren and stimpy where they got sucked into a black hole was great...
this has nothing to do with black holes (or big huge massive really heavy black objects, right miriku?) but it thought it was interesting:
the first hydrogen bomb that was tested was exploded off the coast of bikini atoll, with the scientists on navy ships watching a from a few miles away. they explosion of the bomb was so huge, hot and prolonged that the scientists thought they had ignited the atmosphere. now that is intensely scary.
so remember my tennisball analogy? well, you can throw a tennisball into orbit, right? just get it moving fast enough that it misses the earth as it falls 'down'.
in the same way, you can launch a photon into orbit around a black hole. kinda neat. if you could stand there (you cant) you would see the back of your own head ahead of you
oh. and while i'm ranting on phyiscs -> teleportatoin is totally possible, for a cheat definition of teleportation.
see, a particle has a state: a set of properties that define it. now, in the quantum world if a two particles have the same state, they're not 'in the same state', more then that, they are in fact identical. the same. they are the same particle.
so then, let's say i have a laser. i shoot this laser at a daemon. the daemon then looks at the photon's state, writes it down runs over across the room, grabs a new photon, applies the state to it, and launches it off. i now have the laser beam going into one spot and coming out a different one. neat it's not a copy tho, since the process of the daemon looking at the state interrupts the flight of the first photon.
so in fact for all sakes and purposes the light 'teleported' across the room.
this was done semi recently.
can you teleport yourself?
well, it'd involve something breaking you down into particles, measuring them all, sending the info into a generator somewhere else and rebuilding you.
but sure, yeah.
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
so when you were rebuilt, it really wouldn't be you, just a really really good copy....that's creepy. I wonder if the essence or life or whatever of you would make it across.
Thank you, person who is reading this that is not myself, myself being colossus72. If I could live to be 700, I could really wander.
Heh, speaking of teleportation, wormholes and such, anyone been watching Enterprise? They have transporters, but everyone is afraid of them! it's fuckin awesome!
The tech is good charecters need more development. But the first few episodes of every trek show always feel promising. It looks like its going to be good. Better than voyager anyway.
Heh, yeah i know but it'll never be bab5. Now That was A Great Series. Cant wait for Legend of theRangers..it premieres in Jan. But yeah Im keepin up with Enterprise. Its Nice to see that at one point a Starfleet ship was NOTthe baddest thing in the galexy:)
rofl..ok, does the fact that this thread went from sorta kinda bein about physics to bein about star trek and other space shows mean that it's leet? lol
nobody may tell you how 1337 or what 1337ness is. you have to seek it out yourself. i wish you luck on your journey and provide you with a clue: www.megatokyo.com
The first step into being 1337 is to not spell 1337 in numbers. I have myself a long way to wander you see. Step two is to not use the frase 1337 at all. Cause if you are 1337 you donīt have to say that you are 1337. Step three is to be aware that you not are 1337 at all. The next step is all about selfhumiliation. You got to put your ego out for others to brake down. Step five is to work really hard to be somone you really are not. Step six is to not being interested in being 1337 anymore. Step seven is more complex. I will not go tell you what it is cause it will only make you sick Step eight is to realize that I am just full of crap and that you should not listen to me. Step nine is to flame me with really mean comments that will make me cry and run away from custo forever. And finally step ten... ha I will not tell you I will keep this information to myself.
Okay back to physics. Miriku, how exactly did they get around Heisenberg on that one? Wouldn't you have to know all the info about the particles? Or are they doing the weird polarization technique that they've figured out? (the whole green dot, red dot that are in tune to each other thing)
The thing that i love about quantum physics is that it actually overlaps with philosophy as well. Its pretty cracked out for a science.
pod fun stuff about that, you can't ever realy know where a partical is at any one given point in time becuase they are always moving, unless you take a snapshot then you can know exactly where an object is. or you could take one hell of a damn good guess =)
Taking a snapshot takes time too and influences the particles you want to catch. No wait, now I'm confusing quantum physics with, umm, the other type of physics.
real teleportation and time travel are "theroeticaly" possible and are, for the purpose of our argument, one and the same...
First of all the apparent Time Travel as listed above is nothing but time dilation.. any 9th Grade school student should know that, if you dont... look it up (wow... look at the mystical and wonderous physics text book, i am truely amazed.. wow).
But back to the subject, Wormholes (a real variation of black holes, and yes a black hole is also a dark star, the term was coined by Gene Rodenbury in the first episode of star trek) are able to connect to points in space-time, every quanta/measurement of time (eg. 1 second) occurs in a different "space"/place therefore by connecting to different places you also connect at 2 seperate "times"..
How to make a Time machine. 1. Get yourself a wormhole. 2. stretch it between to points in space time, making sure you put the first opening in the "present" and the other end at the "time" period of your choosing. If you decide to place your 2nd opening in the past, please ensure that you do not become your own father, as this can be a very embarassing situation indeed. 3. travel through it using the modus peragro (method of travel - H0W 1337 4M 1 !!! pH33R L4T1N .. MWAAAAH HAA HAA) of your choice.
How to make a Teleportation Device 1. Get yourself a wormhole. 2. stretch it between to points in space time, making sure you put the first opening in the "present" and the other end in the "present" at another location of your choosing. 3. travel through it.
I'll avoid talking Wormholes in more detail, but you can read Michio Kaku's Hyperspace, which explains it better than I ever could..
Wouldn't teleportation be the same as travelling through hyperspace? A plane higher than our current universe, where matter is comprised of different materials and time is at such a different rate, it appears that travel is instanteous?
btw... for all those people who keep making fun of the black hole thing...first of all check your facts...second of all it is a "hole" its a singularity...a black hole is an area of large of infinite mass in a place of 0 volume...therefore the density of the black hole is undefined...its a singularity in space-time...it does exist and the "hole" analogy is very applicable...time travel through a black hole is entirely possible, except for the tidal forces that happen when you cross the event horizon, which is why it is possible to travel through a spinning black hole... and by the way faster than light travel is theoretically possible...and recently it has been made more plausible. Perhaps you've heard of quantum entanglement? Two quantum entagled photons were recently contained and seperated a great distance...one was vibrated, the other vibrated at the EXACT same instant...faster than light, and in fact at an infinite speed. I'd call that faster that light, so if two things can interact faster than light then a group of things can interact with space-time faster than light. Just wait, its coming...so =P , jk. Just don't be so negative about the whole black hole thing. and yes wormholes are a MUCH better alternative but we have only found stable ones in the subatomic variety...so until we can stretch them and make the balm neccissary for travel through them...thats not really an option. But yes time travel is possible, and in both directions i might add...
As an undergraduate, I actually spent a semester in a class called "The metaphysics of Time Travel" (ya gotta love bein a philosophy major). Anyway... professor's first lecture went something like this:
"Welcome to Philosophy 604, The metaphysics of Time Travel, This course will be fairly challenging and rigorous, but then again, most of you will make 'A's'... 'cause, well... once you get the hang of it, you all have-willent (fn1) gone back and fixed any less than satisfactory coursework."
(fn1): for the problems associated with tense formation in language about time travel, see the aforementioned Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
(by the way, I will-has-decided to post this approx. 23 years from now. All I havehad to say is... appreciate aerosol cheese while it'was still an innocent snack product)
Right... its a singularity, but its not exactly a hole as the english language would dictate (i.e. a portal that leads else where), if you fell into it, there is no exit. in that manner a dot or a singularity would definitely be a more accurate description for the layman. Its only a hole in the sense that things can fall into it.
As an undergraduate, I actually spent a semester in a class called "The metaphysics of Time Travel" (ya gotta love bein a philosophy major). Anyway... professor's first lecture went something like this:
"Welcome to Philosophy 604, The metaphysics of Time Travel, This course will be fairly challenging and rigorous, but then again, most of you will make 'A's'... 'cause, well... once you get the hang of it, you all have-willent (fn1) gone back and fixed any less than satisfactory coursework."
(fn1): for the problems associated with tense formation in language about time travel, see the aforementioned Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
(by the way, I will-has-decided to post this approx. 23 years from now. All I havehad to say is... appreciate aerosol cheese while it'was still an innocent snack product)
Now for some interesting stuff... black holes, dark stars and singularitys...
Let us speak of Roy Kerr, New Zealander.
First of all I hear you say "who the F*** is Roy F***ing Kerr" or may be your wit extends beyond that you instead your say "so who's this Wang ??" (for those who's brains are a little slow in which ever timescale they are currently occupying, Wang Kerr, wanker... nuff said.. jeez, I shouldn't have to explain lame humour, but I just know someones going to read this shite and be saying wha????).
Roy Kerr, unfortunately a New Zealander, appologies to those of you who are real New Zealander's and reside in your own country instead of, say, England or Australia, or more specifically the Australian National University (I swear total New Zealand population of ANU is something like %40, especially in the science departments... you guy breed like rabbits !!! ever hear of birth control ???), however, he was fortunately a Physicist, a pretty bright one too.
Roy Kerr found the exact solution to the Einstien-Rosen bridge equation (the equation for using black holes/singularitys for interdementional travel).
Kerr found, that a massive rotating star does not, all of a sudden, colapse into a single point. Instead when a rotating star collapses it gradually flattens until it is compressed into a ring.
The ring has certain properties which cause a finite curviture to the gavitational force, instead of a infinite curvature when it is a ball or point.
This means that a craft could be shot along the rotational axis through the ring and through the singularity and survive.
Being able to pass through this singularity means that it would in essence be traveling through a black hole and into a nother universe/space-time possition.
The black hole has become a worm hole.
PS: It seams that KrazyCelt has gotten senile and forgetful in his/her old age and forgot he/she posted it the first time. That, in my opinion is the problem with time travel, if you get so old that you forget that you've already done something once, how many times do you end up doing it ?? and when you realise that you've already done it and forgotton about it and then done it again... isnt that a depressing ??
as I reread the last post, I should state that its late here, so forgive my spelling and puntuation, and my lack of ability with the english language at this time of night.
Quantum Entanglement is cool... read Orson Scot Cards "Children of the Mind", he wrote about the idea and it application in this book and the one before it (part of the Enders Game series).
you're WRONG if you say that you're traveling through time when you're traveling faster than light. the speed of light is 300.000 km/sec. So when you are going faster than that, you'll just be able to do greater distances in a same time.
and about the wormholes: i think REAL physicists know better than us whether time travelling is possible. Like we, the normal people know anything about it. RIGHT....
i've read the entire series a dozen times or so including the two new parallel novels...so when i heard about the quantum entanglement thing i was so excited cause the first thing that popped into my head was "the anvil" and pushing things "outside"...good to see another card fan on the boards....everyone should read those books...
hehe...Itane....btw: when you hit the speed of light you turn into energy ... so YOU won't be traveling anywhere... and also, real people like us can read real books written by real physicists and then have some real conception of what the real physicists know...i know thats a crazy concept ;)
PS pod , you know i wasn't angry when i wrote that ;)...now BACK OFF!
"Time" is a human concept, one more rooted in psychology than physics. It is closely related to such ideas as "the afterlife".
The theories surrounding time vs. space vs. light are all just that: theories. It takes "time" to travel a certain distance. It takes "time" for light to travel a certain distance as well. We have no concept of anything travelling at any velocity greater than that of light, other than what is proposed in various theories.
From my perspective, the concept of "time" is no more tangible or real than the concept of a "god". It is something that fills in blanks where we do not understand.
ANOPHELES: awesome series, but I've only read it once and then couldnt read Enders Shadow, just couldnt get into it.. However it is interesting that you mention "Taking Things Outside". It stinks of Wormholes. Of course with wormhole you dont actually take things out and then bring them back in, you create a gateway transporting things from one place to another.
ITANE: Real Physicists have PROVED, time travel is possible, and that faster than light travel is possible. And besides when it comes to time travel, wormholes remove the need to travel faster than light or for that matter they remove the need to travel at all. For GoDS sake, the closest point between to places is not a straight line. Even Douglas Adams knew that, and he's "just an author".
Stop thinking in 2D.
TONGUEFINGER: Yes. Time is a human concept, however it is also part of time-space, named because it may give people like yourself some idea about the concept. every time is a place in time-space, just as every place is a time in time-space.
I just wish people would forget about light, light is not a thing.. it is mearly the interdimesional effect of an interdimesional occurance.. light is irrelevant, yet convinient.
And as far a GOD goes, if you pick up a copy of the TAO TE CHING at your local bookstore, or perhaps read something like "I'm not really here" - Tim Allen, or even discuss the natural entanglement of physics and philosphy, you'll soon learn that the concept of GOD is not something that fills the blanks, but is the blanks, the surrounding objects that create the blanks and everything else for that matter.
Personally I am not religious, I dont beleive in GOD or ALLAH or anything else. I have seen the Dalai Lama speak and was truely amazed, and have a great respect for the man.
However Christians beleieve that GOD is everywhere, within everything, and even that we are made from GOD and by GOD (Hmm.. the conundrum is that if we are made from GOD then surely we must be GOD, as you cannot fundementally change what something is ). Taoists beleive that the Tao is the fundimental force in the universe and from what i understand the Tao is the energy of the universe, which created everything and is everything.
As far as other religions go I'm not sure but welcome comment by any Muslim's or Hindu's reading this discussion.
The more physics you learn about the harder it gets to discuss, so many concepts, so few letters in this small and ugly alphabet and equally simplistic language.
For anyone reading and not quite in the know, I highly recommend a book by Michio Kaku called "Hyperspace" It's an excellent starting point for people interested in theoretical physics.
crazy physics folks, i never got into it, loved the hitchhikers "trilogy", tried reading steven hawking's damn, i forgot the title, somethign about blackholes, either way, i never got into that. Rules suck in any form or shape, that's why i detest science. Creative writing gives you so much more freedom, you're nto restricted to whatever rules people have come up with, you create your own set of laws so to speak. hmm, i don't think this post has a point, if it does please let me know, because i;m rather curious whether or not i just sound stupid.
as i sit here thinking to myself, why are we even living here, like just floating in space out of nowhere, how were we created, who the hell knows, who is behind all of this, and don't say God...because that just puts out the question, think and think... it really boggles your mind.
there is a wonderful art project i seen. a man took many clocks and watches, took apart all the pieces, placed them on large petri dishes, put them under glass, and placed a lamp over each one. he then claimed that since there is an input of energy the pieces will evolve into watches again the whole assembly is called "self-assembling clocks".
oh. and i believe that if you cant honestly make fun of yourself and your beliefs, you're hiding shit from yourself
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
escopedo -> furthermore, i love your post about creative writing and freedom being completely unstructured, unreadable and with you yourself even admitting, no point
there's rules to everything. no matter how creative you may think you are, you still use words, dont you. it's a rule. all writers use words.
no what?
blah. science is about questioning, guessing, then checking. not about laws. if you think science and the universe follows mathematical laws, you're choosing to be ignorant.
the universe is. it *happens* to statistically more often then not do things that we predicted using some simple models. not vice versa
nuff. miriku - out.
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
well the Hawking book is called "A Breif History of Time"
If you're looking for other good Sci-fi by Card, read Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus
as for the physics stuff some things that need to be set right:
Time as we know it now is a function of entropy. As time goes forward entropy increases.
You do not turn into energy when you hit the speed of light. That occurs when you hit the speed of light squared.
As you approach the speed of light you approach several limits, if you make some asumptions based on taht, hitting the speed of light would cause your mass to become infinite, cause time to dialate to a stop, which would mean that you would hit Absolute Zero (no particle motion). As you can see there are some inherent contradictions there :p but thats why we can't hit it as far as we're aware :)
Traveling faster than the speed of light is possible but only if you drop to Newtonian physics. the whole Rate = Distance/Time. If you bend space then you can cover a larger amount of distance per unit of time, hence traveling 'faster' than the speed of light.
Recently though there has been some weird stuff with getting supercharged xenon to jump out of a room before it enters, but they're still arguing over the results of that test...
a particle at a certain level is a wave, and it's position can either be measured at tip of the wave or at the peak.
the trick, as thats what it was, was based on measuring the xeon at different points on the wave, creating the illusion of it moving faster then light. tunneling i believe was the term they used.
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
Hmm... My science teacher always told me you couldn't go beyond the speed of light, because that would prove the various theories derived from light having the upper limit wrong.
and my teacher always said gravity prevents us from flying off the planet, and if we started floating it would prove variousu theories derived from it wrong.
I never bought that.
*sigh*
*makes a mental note to stop reading this thread cause he gets annoyed every time he reads it*
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
dang miriku, ya need to calm down :-) ya take everything way too serious, yeah writing (or language as a whole for that) is based on rules, but i feel much less confined when it comes to language (anyone of the 4 i speak). English is my 4th language to learn and obviously i haven't fully mastered it, yet i feel much more comfortable using it as a tool of creative thought as opposed to science, simply because science causes way too much controversy and debate, as opposed to writing, where you take something for what it is. hmm, damn, i think i found myself in the situation again where i've lost my point, so as to prevent any further embarassment i'll stop now
(yet i'm posting this, makes ya think? probably not though)
assume there were only two objects in the universe: one with a humonguous mass, something like the total mass of all the objects in our universe combined together to form a supermassive black hole. now imagine a single electron a huge distance away. how fast does the information travel across this distance to reach the electron to start to gravitate towards the supermassive black hole? does it exceed the speed of light?
as miriku said before, F=Gm1m2/r*r where the gravity of the rest of the universe is Gm1/r*r. Since speed is not really involved, gravity just happens. it doesn't travel to the electron, it always exists between the electron and the rest of the universe
I think you should be looking to Superstring theory for the answer. Or just accept mine.
No.
Information is not transmitted, Gravity is a force, forces are inherent with matter. I am alive therefore I am living (although that is a contest able point, I have no life ??), this is matter therefore it has gravity.
You're point is not entirely valid. Gravity is indeed a force, but its a force mediated by particles. As one of the four fundamental forces it is supposed to be carried by something. In this case it is the hypothesized 'graviton' particle. The question then becomes how do these particles propigate?
The answer?
Dunno! we haven't observed gravitons at all, let alone how they function :)
The scientific community is pretty sure the gravitons exist (because the particle would fit in perfectly to the system we have currently, its a pretty safe assumption [science does this alot :) "we need a particle, it should be over here, lets see if we can find it"]), and logically it should behave some what like the other 3 forces:
Electro-magnetic Nuclear Weak Nuclear Strong
the first being propigated by electrons the second being carried by W+, W-, and Z0 the last transmitted by the gluon particle
particularly noticable with electrons, while it is a permiating force, does have a flight time from point a to b, which is dependant on the medium it is passing through.
POD: Superstring theory. or even better "Crazzzy Rubber Sheet and a ball bearing theory".
This is something which you should vizualise rather than do.
Take a CRRAAZZZY rubber sheet, stretch it by the four corners and drop a ball bearing in the middle of it. This is Gravity - kinda.. it implys that where matter is space curves towards or falls towards the object. In reality this is a 4 dimensional occurance, and I am only giving you a 3 Dimesional representation.
Lets take it to a 2D plane and confuse it even more.
Take a peice of string. Tie a knot in it. stretch it tight. The knot represents matter, the string space. Now the string is string whether is is in the form of a knot or not, ie:string.
Fawk -- i did it again, bloody tags. happends whenever I put an arrow in
further to the lasty post: Take a peice of string. Tie a knot in it. stretch it tight. The knot represents matter, the string space. Now the string is string whether it is in the form of a knot or not, ie:string. ((-- this is not a pune or a play on words it just happened., now change the word string to space or "fabric of space-time" and knot to matter, it becomes: Now the fabris of space-time is the fabric of space-time whether it is matter or space.
Now change it to 3D, the Ball Bearing becomes rubber and is also part of the rubber sheet. Now swith to 4D, Space-time, Matter and Gravity
Now this is only a representation, the trooth about Sooper String Theory is that it is al based around waves and the peak of virbrations. However SST is way beyond my comprehension and for that matter beyond the comprehension of the guy that came up with it. The brainy guys beleive that SST is 22nd Century Maths that has appeared in the 21st Century, apparently we shouldnt even have it, but we do. No one seems to completely understand it, but it works, remarkably well.. if SST can be completely proved then it will become a major candidate for the GUT.
Now, I don't discount for a second that particles exist which relate to forces such as Gravity. What I am saying is that the particles are actually implied or manifestations of forces, obviously we live in a multidimensional universe, but we are 3 Dimensional creatures, so we can only observe 3 dimensional occurances, the implied particles being 3D.
In other words, yes they exist, but no they really dont. if that makes sense.
PS, 4 others reading this: If i give the impression that im being simplistic in my approach, its because i am, this is how i grasped my understanding about multidimensional theory and how it relates to wormholes, and everything else for that matter. Obviously there is a lot of background info which is not being discussed here, however POD is a brainy bugger and knows a lot more about the particle shite that goes on than I do. My feild of interest is purely theoretical branching into philosphy and the implications therein. Therefore I have a simplistic approach which helped me understand it and which i hope helps others understand it also.
POD: we'll probably be arguing about this until the aliens take us away.
