This is a proposal I sent to the Customize.org main administrators/owners. Read it, add to it.. add your name to the proposal.
[B]Customize.org Policy Change Proposal[B]
Recent posts on Customize.org have raised some controversy on Customize.org’s message boards. Users are debating over what is art and what isn’t art. Many users are complaining that their fellow users are posting work that is of poor quality in the majority of the reviewers’ eyes. Both the public and administrators are giving very low review scores.
My proposed Customize.org change is that the reviewers may nominate a user for his/hers work. If a user gets a nomination on at least 5 pieces of work, they will be inducted into a higher-level users (Hereby referred to as HLUs) page.
In order to ensure that all users have equal publicity, the HLUs work will be circulated into the front page as New Uploads like they now. The only difference in how they are presented on the New Uploads is an 18x18 pixel image with a gold Customize.org logo like the one below: (an image went here)
The HLUs would also have a page separate from the lower leveled users, which would be linked on the Main Menu entitled “Inducted Higher Level Users”. The contents on this site would be much like the regular main page. There would be only HLU posts, news, and message boards.
This proposal would limit the amount of overloaded pages with poor quality work. It would also allow HLUs to advance themselves by competing with other HLU peers. It would also help the lower level users learn from HLUs by giving them the chance to see pure HLU work.
how about people just use better judgement before they submit a 5 minute peice? This is a good idea, but overly complex and may be victim to people playing favorites. I'm just going to quit wallpapering for a bit and refine my winamp skinning skills.....bye.
i think its a great idea....but like colossus said its a bit complex....but i love the idea and if it can be done then wtf are we waiting for....becuase something must be done about the wallpaper situation....
.but the HLU users wouldnt have to be as good as shinter or precurser.....just people who do decent work and only do it for the advancement and strengthening of themselves as digital artisits..
wouldn't having "higher level users" just make many people try to copy the style of the "HLU"s so that they too can become an "HLU"? and isn't one of the main reasons you're upset is the fact that nobody is showing any innovation? seems like having "HLU"s would just precipitate that problem.
no merk, because the community would be choosing what goes up there :P If people don't want copy cats, then they wouldn't make it up there. Still how damn hard is it for someone to just create a bunch of accounts and nominate themselves?
it also seems a tad overcomplicated, but we'll be discussing what we need to do about the state of uploads around here soon. We'll take inconcideration what's been said here.
i agree that only stuff people like would be nominated (duh, lol) but what im getting at is i don't think this proposal will solve any problems. it will just make custo slower and harder to maintain.
The screenshots and wallpapers are the problems on this site - not anything else. A dozen crappy wallpapers are uploaded here each day, but only a handful of skins are up a day at best and not all of them are crap. There just needs to be a moderator for wp's. If an admin rates if below 50 it shouldn't be added to the database. That is if the admins are fair and not pissy. As far as skins go, remember people have to start somewhere and apps like Winamp aren't easy to skin the first time.
Oh and I think your suggestion is way too complex, Arznek. I also think the HLU is a dumb idea. Only the most talented would be voted for so the same people would have their stuff on the front page all the time.
The whole thing smells fishy to me. Who will benefit from this? It will not be the visitors to the site, but only a handful of geeks with heads swelled with egos. Just the naming of your scheme is suspectious.
Are you asking for a new India with a neo-Hindu-caste-system?
BTW, when you first introduce your argument, you introduce the problem of people debating what's art and what's not, but you quickly move on to the problem of "poor quality" wps in your next following sentce. So, what is your proposal going to solve? Which problem? In any event, I don't see neither of two phenomena as problems. You are making a "solution" to a non-existent problem. How nice! We can be authortarian while playing favortism. You rock.
I think there is a problem, but i don't think this is the solution to it, and if it would be i (among others) think it's waaay too complicated. Why can't people just think again before posting ? People are different, we have different opinions about everything, also art. Why do we have to make up rules, why can't we just try to get along..
Of course the wallpapers are a problem ("high server load.."), but i don't think this would solve it. I think a better solution would be to get more admins/moderators, so that the crappy wallpapers would get deleted. Another system would be this: A user posts a skin/wallpaper. A moderator looks at it, and if he says "ok", then it will be shown on the site.. Still, this wouldn't work because of the lack of moderators.. And when some users skins/wallpapers wouldn't be shown on the site, they would prolly post them again.. yes, bad idea.
As clint eastwood sometimes said: "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one"
how about only letting in ten g-damn wall's a day.. im getting so tired of these crapy wallpapers i don't even bother to review anything anymore unless its a skin and even then alot of the skins are just rips. (with some exceptions of course).. im tired of wallpapers. remove the comleatly.. ..
There are always going to be loop holes in any idea. Ohh and another thing.. it was mentioned that it would cause lower level users to copy HLUs work. If it is made clear that the reason they are there is because they are creative and YOU should learn to be creative like them not copy them i think if that mindset is placed it would work nicely.
I understand that everyone thinks that all the shitty walls are getting out of hand. Instead of a new policy here, I think everyone needs to step back and really think about whether or not their "art" is really worth submitting. When people submit something and say they spent 5 minutes on it, they know it sucks! If you know something sucks, don't submit it, keep working and take the criticism and advice you see on the other shitty "art" as if it were on your own. Eventually you'll end up with something worth submitting, and everyone will love it. Why haven't I submitted anything to Custo? Because I don't have anything that I find worthy of Custo's server space. I don't want to waste people's time with a picture I made in paint on Windows 3.1 when I was 2. I know nobody would give a shit about it. All I'm trying to say is, think before you submit! and also, think before you comment. A comment saying "I spent 5 minutes on this and I know it sucks" will be taken worse than "I'm just starting out, it might look like 5 minute work, but it really took me a week. Please tell me how to improve." All the great artists on here are always asking for ways to improve their work. I think I'm beginning to ramble and this is probably my longest post on custo, ever, so I think I'll shut up now.
If you have a "problem" with wps taking the front spot over your perference of app skins, just do an extra click to the section menu on the left and set sort by date as your default. This solves the "problem."
As for wasting bandwidth, every upload does its harm. Yes we all know the server is like hell when compared to the gllen days or the CM days, but until the owner can upgrade to better server(s), there is nothing that can solve it. Money matters you know.
The problem with wall submissions is, as we all know, it is only the OTHER GUYS' walls that are crappy and shouldn't be uploaded.
Smell the roses, kiddies.....it is yours that are crap.....think about that for a while and maybe you will do as I do....not upload [my] walls.
As a moderator on Wincustomize.com, I get to see some wonderous creations....oh joy, oh bliss. Fortunately, I have had a schooling in fine art [30 years], and have existed around skinning and desktop enhancement long enough to wield a sharp knife.
In the last 2 or three months, only about 200 walls have made it in...a hell of a lot more were submitted. All you need is balls, and the courage of your commitment to maintaining some semblance of standards of moderation. Try NOT to allow personal preferences to cloud judgement, when in doubt, defer to another admin for ratification/opinion.
It isn't hard....it IS time-consuming. It just depends on your willingness to contribute to the community and the site.
The ICP Factor = the lowest common denominator of what people think is good - for purposes of the theory, that includes Insane Clown Posse wallpapers.
So: let's say you, the erudite artist-about-town, spend the next 5 months on a magnum opus, and submit it here... perhaps it's sellected as worthy by your peers; perhaps not. However, Johnny Simmons has called up 5 of his juniorhigh buddies to log in & approve his InsaneClownPosseRulzzz!!!! wallpaper, and now he has elite status...
No. No no no no. Trust the admin's judgement, please. Won't someone please think of the children?
"abracadabra boom shaka day i'm violent jay and i'm back like a vertebrea and i'm come with a bag full of tricks a trunk full of fanco, car full of fat chicks a haha ha ha hahaha fuck you wicked clowns we'd like to say whats up to the ninjas the cobras and anyone with clown love, even sets we never heard of roll into town and out with the big top three cards down and two more still to drop and when they do i pack up and hit the road cause i dont wanna see your head explode toss me an axe and i'll toss you a dead chicken add a dollar and get a two liter wit' it and when the fat chick says "on with the show" it's hokus pokus jokus great milenko"
yeah, thats from memory :P
:: to die and not perish is to be eternally present : tao te ching ::
ok i read this whole damn post and the best idea i see so far is Rush's idea of only letting 10 walls or so a day...
there could be 10 daily walls that have been chosen by first come first serve basis to be shown
this way the real crap like msPaint drawings can be sorted out along with the non-walls (screenshots submitted in wall section) and the bitmaps...i like this idea...GO RUSH68....hehe
I'll respectfully disagree. having a couple hundred people try and hit our server all at one time to get the first 10 submissions seems like an awfully silly thing to do.
{==[AdamTT] ==} ---------[Customize STAFF]--------- helping you customize the weird things on your computer screens since 1998 http://liquidspin.com/modemman
ooo, like we need rank now. and its SOOO hard to make a few different users and go 'ooo your good keep it up man!' with every user. come on. after that, people will be arguing because 'IM A HIGHER CALSS THAN YOU! BOW TO ME! MWAHAH' and things like that. sorry. thumbs down on this one. rush's idea is good, but that might mean that there will be many people that wont get to submit, possibly never, because of time changes and such. i know when i log on at 6:45AM on my timezone, there is at least 3-4 wallpapers already in. some of us have jobs and things like that, and might not have time until after work/school/prostuttion and so we would never get to submit it. and if we did send it to someone else to submit, and it sucked, they might not upload it, since they might get the criticizm (cant spell today) for it.
p.s. to all wp makers: any wallpaper is good to some extent, and there is no 'mspaint' wallpapers that i have seen as of yet. maybe one or two, but that was before the shutdown. anyway, i say let them upload the crappy wps, but let them and ONLY them take them down. lets say after, oh, a week, the author, after getting maybe 10 comments, can take it down, rework it, and submit it back in. this i can handle/work with.
[Discovery is looking at the same thing everyone else is, and thinking different] [Where Don't You Want to Go Today?]
Whatever, honestly i wish we wouldn't have to moderate, cause frankly i don't want to have to deal with exactly what we're going through right now. This is not an ego trip, this is not elitism revisited. This is trying to resist the mob rule school of quality control.
Furthermore, first come first serve does -not- work, because people who are actually -good- at art, usually have -day jobs-. They dedicate time to our community because they like to do it, and forcing people to conform to specific times of upload seems like damn stupid idea to me. "Sorry Shinter, you live in Europe and are at work everyday when the new uploads open up. Too bad mate, but skript kiddie joe got his 5 uploads for the morning in, so we cant accept any other wps for the day!"
Seems like a damn fool system to me. Moderation works when done fairly. Given a concrete and outlined standard with impartial moderators, moderation keeps out the totally random crap that clogs up the New Uploads page. This also helps people find the quality wallpapers more easily and faster.
not all wallpapers are good. A relativistic standard of what is 'good' does not exist, there are certain specific qualities that exist in any peice of artwork that makes it 'good' or 'pleasing to the eye.' Throwing together a bunch of filters randomly on a page does not make a good piece of art. Doing such is akin to scribbling doodles in the margins of a notebook while sitting at work/class.
yes....agreed with pod on my idea blows and his owns mine with a rubber boot to the face..... hehe...
10 daily walls would just be more hassle....and the 'shoggot' way of moderating them is much more effective.... many sites do this... if you didnt read pod's link here it is again : http://www.shoggot.com/moderated.txt
From the bottom of this msg board the ideas have completely changed.. its like the "pass on the phrase" game.. .by the time you get to the end it's went from "Dogs eat bones." to "Cat killed a Nazi Chicken" ... It was a proposal not a set policy.. I never said there should be only 10 uploads a day or uploads at certain hours of the day.. and i also said equal publicity for all users. I think some people are getting the wrong idea... and like someone said .. "It's not my art thats the problem its the other guy." well thats very true thinking .. i know some ppl like my stuff and some don't thats personal opinion, but all people can tell originality and thats one of the key issues here.
.:Arznek:. Dancing in my grandmothers panties smearing peanut butter all over myself.
Ohh one more thing i forgot to say.. [B]people are not going to use good judgement on their uploads.. and expecting people to do so is retarted because it won't happen in a million years.[/B]
Yes we know this, but by you submitting you are starting a discussion, and conversations usually evolve, such as when you see a friend you dont just sit there and ask them how they are and whats up over and over, you acctually go into discussion based on answers, and this is simply what you incited by posting, and i still say Shoggots school of moderation would be the best way. Even though prolly none of myn would make it, im not complaining cuz i would clear out all the riff raff...... ok im dont :p
*the-EnDeR* Jesus drank wine, but he didn't drive, he rode a donkey.
the shoggot school of moderation is where admins moderate the walls that can be submitted.... kinda like skinz...... the admins personally looked at every wall and before it acctually made it to the site the madeshure that it didnt suck
I'm liking this shoggot thing.. either way I believe that there should be some kind of "filtering/moderation".... On the other hand the moderators already don't review every wallpaper.. how do you expect them to check each one.. and if that is the case i think custo would lose viewers...
It's hard work... Viewing EVERY wall submitted... Then, if rejecting, sending an email.... Then, if questioned as to why 'my filter frenzy done while I was bored' ain't good enough, responding and explaining.... It takes time. Tough titties....if the site is woth the effort, it will be done.
[B]Here is a better idea - why don't we ask the administrators to make a poll with all of the different proposal plans on it and let the votes decide what should happen. Then maybe we'll get somewhere ehh?[/B]
once again, Arznek, we can all read what you're saying -- no need to bold the whole post. your words are no more important than everyone else's.
on a positive note, thanks for thinking about how to improve custo and taking the time to give your suggestions. we always take note of suggestions made on this board
in re: how could they moderate each & every wall that came through...
For a long time, I was the only one moderating wallpapers at skinz, and I was doing ~60 or so a day... as volume increased, more moderators were taken on, after carefully checking for taste (the bodies of those that tried to accept ICP walls are currently festering at the bottom of the Potomac river). It can work.
BUT:
Historically, this has always been a divided community on this subject. Some have preffered sites where moderation existed; some preffered the more egalitarian approach of everything-gets-in.
Everything-gets-in is what Custo (original custo) was founded on - however, the world was a smaller place then. There were (max) 10 new wallpapers a day, approximately. So that approach was manageable.
skinz.org also started with that approach - but when the wallpaper section hit, hrm, IIRC ~1500 walls or so, we noticed that it became hard to find good ones among the chaff... so moderation was introduced - along with an initial purge. This, of course, pissed off nearly every single person who had had material up which didn't make the cut.
In the long run, it was for the best. The wallpaper section was leaner & meaner, and (I believe) we gained a rep for having a consistently good set of walls at the site.
What should this mean for custo? No clue. Some suppositions, perhaps. Should they use some method of moderation? I think they should; but I'm biased on the subject, definitley on the pro-moderation side. If they had an -astounding- search engine, or some truly good method of calculating quality (cf. zen & at of motorcycle maintence re: intrinsic vs extrinsic qual) by which members could sort, then I'd say everything-gets-in would be the ideal.
Custo and skinz had another important difference that enabled this split of philosophy to work - Custo has always had ratings for work - admin & user. That -does- provide some variety of qualitative measurement - never one i've felt was particularly accurate, but still, does provide some semblance. Skinz never had this, by conscious choice. So perhaps moderation was a reaction to having no other method to categorize quality level of work, by sticking everything at a baseline "good"? Perhaps.
Point is, some will be happy receiving a numerical marker attached to their work; some won't. Moderation (I think) goes hand in hand with the latter approach; accept-all goes with the former.
This still doesn't help me answer custo's dilemna; being on the outside, I suppose it would be impossible, anyway. Perhaps some compromise between extremes. Anyway, just woke up, saw the thread, thought I'd spout off some dribble before I went to work.
i was a skinz. org user and most of my walls never made it and i got a nice little email about it...... but it didnt tick me off, it made me want to create more so im also heavily biased on the pro-moderation side
One effect moderation will have is that most of the I made this, give me some feedback stuff will be filtered out. You have to decide whether or not that is a desired effect.
/me was kicked out of the Shoggot School of Moderation on day one
Hey wraybling i used bold is because i was getting frustrated w/ the fact that some people are completely twisting what i was trying to say, and that some people were redundantly posting what had already been said by users before.. even the msg board is like the wallpapers issue.. also they gave the bold option to all users … I chose to use it.. no my words are not more important than anyone elses, but given the right to emphasize my point I’ll use it as I feel I need to. Other users have the chance to use tags. I don’t appreciate being jumped.
.:Arznek:. Dancing in my grandmothers panties smearing peanut butter all over myself.
Some people need or disserve a bad rating, I mean anyone can tell the difference between a GOOD wp and one that looks like someone pulled down there pants and took a shit on the screen. I mean good wallpaper looks like someone took time, and skipped three lunches in school so they could use Adobe Photoshop because their parents couldn’t afford the real version. So they had to use the library’s computer, and go to a warez site just to get the program and get caught because the librarian thinks there trying to hack into the governments computer system. And a whole nation wide epic is born on terrorism because of someone’s bad rating or some jerk trying to be cool.
“The skill of work can’t be measured, the quality of work can”. -Deleted-X and you can quote me on that.
-Deleted-X ______________________ don't hit delete while high
Moderation ain't so tough - I actually enjoyed my brief spell of moderating at skinz. Sure - people can get pissed about it, you've just got to ensure you can back up your decisions with viable critique - or leave it to shog :p
Moderation is quite the line to cross... it makes a big difference and would change everything about a site that starts using it... also, you can't just moderate wallpapers, you have to moderate everything... and talk about a pain in the ass for the site admins...
....when i first started out making wp's back in the skinz days, i actully liked the fact that only the better wp's got in...i feel this made me a better artist by forcing me to spend time on my work, sit back and reflect on what i was doing/creating and it gave me great happiness when my first wp was accepted.
/me grabs tansmutates 2 cents.... thanks man im broke.....
anyways on the topic.... if you think it would be to muuch would i would gladly take the winamp and icq skins if it means getting rid of photo skins ;p.... moderation is the way to go and if you dont ike it talk to shoggy
How about NO moderation, but instead have the New Uploads listed by Name, Author, Date, Size, and Rating depending on what the user wants?? that would solve this entire thing and everyone would still be as equal as everyone else..
.:Arznek:. Masturbating in a pile of my own feces while reading guns and ammo magazine.
