Thats a very good question. I would think that all the rich people in this country would send thier sons and daughters far away. Most of them would no doubt be republicans who wanted to goto war in the first place to stop the butcher of baghdad but dont want thier own family members being a part of the fight
I'm sick of people who buy into this Michael Moore bullshit that "we send our kids to war." Our military consists of adult volunteers who willingly sign up and know what they sign up for.
Anybody with half a brain willing to look past the propaganda - and draft talk is all propaganda - would realize that both currently active bills are sponsored by Democrats. Additionally, from a pragmatic standpoint, no draft will ever get enough popular support to be effected.
And to all those who would bash me further, I would happily go fight if that's what my country required.
This has nothing to do with michael moore but more to do with my own opinion and how I see current events. No one is bashing you either this is merely the point of view from someone who has no party affiliation.
well if it were to occur, i wouldnt be very happy, but all in all, if it came to down to sitting and home and getting the crap bombed out of us, hell, id rather fight for my country and my starbucks.
we do have it rather awesome here.
sticboy [stic] Customize.org Staff Design Development --------------------------- "still keeping it clean, simple, and functional."
I'm pretty much sided with max on the issue, but sticboy is right, i will fight to defend starbucks! All hail the Coffee Empire!
_______________ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ---Theodore Roosevelt
Max made a good point- it's those blood thirsty Republicans that want to kill kill kill. But so did Flint, because on the same line, thankfully there is no draft (yet). Poor democrats and 3rd party members would no doubt be the infantry (the ones sent on a suicide style mission), while the Republicans would be relaxing in Canada and Mexico, sipping on martinis, guilt free.
But just because you were born here, does that really make it 'your' country? What about black and biracial people who were dragged here against there will 200 years ago? Should they now embrace the country that they were forced to enter?
*grabs his fishing pole* plenty of bait to go around now ;)
_______________ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ---Theodore Roosevelt
Wynton... lets not forget the whole picture of slavery and the african slave drivers selling slaves to whitey. If you've got a problem with being a United States citizen then go take a boat right to your native country and check out the superior living conditions and strong stable economies.
and
Fighting can solve problems. Dictators who literally think they're God aren't going to negotiate with pen and paper. Violence sure got the point across here on 9/11 didn't it? FEAR
Fighting surely didn't stop the complete anihalation of the entire jewish people of europe in the 1940's did it?
To think that people in the world aren't out to harm you is obsured. Even John Kerry can't say thats not true.
Call me a blood thirsty republican, fine. If a draft becomes active I won't like it, but I sure wont disgrace my family and country by running to Brazil.
Oh and...To get you up to date here Canada does not sanction draft dodgers anymore.
Let's say I did. I could go to Honduras, Nigeria, England...but what about the people not as fortunate as I?
But not everyone in that situation can. You forget a lot of people are poor in this country, and can't do anything about it.
You also forget that those who were dragged over here would be killed if they tried to leave. But now, their legacy is probably comfortable with the American way of life-- and that's fine.
Personally, I think that the government from pay for any and all who want to leave the United States.
I for one do not. I was just saying-- some do and cannot.
Let's agree to disagree on this. You've got your opinion, I've got mine. Neither of us are going to change.
o.o Glad Wynton made that point. It's a null fight based on opinion. Feel free to preach yours, just don't beat down on the others.
I didn't have time last night to give my view on this drafty bit. If I were asked (or forced) to fight for this country for a just cause, by all means I would. I don't want my friends and family getting the shit bombed out of them without me doing something to prevent it. In this case, however, we aren't being bombed. Not by Iraq, at least. Nor do I believe invading a country that doesn't pose any threat whatsoever a "just cause".
So, if a draft is issued in this case, I would most deffinately avoid it. I fight for my own beliefs, not those of a marrionette daddy's boy president.
Unless Starbucks gets nuked. Then it's personal. :)
I hate liars. I hate hypocrites. I hate haters. Now gimmie a hug.
I agree.. with all matters dealing with race and such it's better to agree to disagree. On a lighter note here are some things to ponder.
Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:
Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.
Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.
The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing UN resolutions against Iraq.
A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multinational corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.
Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.
The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.
If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.
A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our longtime allies, then demand their cooperation and money.
Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.
HMOs and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.
Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.
A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense.
A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.
Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.
The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.
Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness, and you need our prayers for your recovery.
You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have the right to adopt.
What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.
I'll go to to jail for illegally evading the draft. I will stay and go to jail. I support all those join the military and salute all their sacrafice, but no ones should be force to go. And I'm not going at this moment.
+| he who will kill the god if given the slightest chance |+
Abe Lincoln, when asked the following, "How many legs does a sheep have if you call its tail a leg?", responded: "Four. Calling its tail a leg doesn't make it one."
In other words, Max, you may say you have no party affiliation, but very clearly your opinions are not neutral.
And who made this a race issue? I wouldn't even reference the draft anymore, because it serves no more use than a "what would you do if you won the lottery" discussion. From a pragmatic standpoint, for example, slavery led to a very improved quality of life for descendant Africans in the U.S. Does that make slavery acceptable? Hell no - by no means, and no sane person would think that. My grandparents endured a crappy life in Poland and then the U.S., but if they hadn't the second and third family generations wouldn't have the life we do.
Arznek already covered most of this good stuff. As a Republican, it's not easy for me to sit here and read ignorant blanket statements about evil Republicans. Such as: "Poor democrats and 3rd party members would no doubt be the infantry (the ones sent on a suicide style mission), while the Republicans would be relaxing in Canada and Mexico, sipping on martinis, guilt free." Wynton, from what I've seen of you on here over the past year and some, you're far more intelligent than to believe something like that, and I hope it's satire.
Flintsilver-- that is what I was trying to say! The fact that even if some of my distant relatives were dragged over here, if they weren't, I wouldn't be here. And I'll be honest- America is a good place to live -- no matter how you end up here.
I was being sarcastic, but do you see what I mean?
Case and point- I was looking at the news a while back (sorry I can't be more accurate) and a member of the Black Panthers (don't worry -- this is NOT a race issue) said that the Black Panthers would willfully disobey the draft because black soldiers would probably be the ones sent to die, which is true in the military today -- to an extent. There are far more black Army officers than any other branch of the American military machine. (making a generalization here, but a lot of black people are Democrats -- again, don't mean to step on toes).
Getting back on topic...: If America was being attacked, then yes, I'd fight. But if I was getting drafted for something inane and stupid, like, say, this "war on terror" that's going nowhere, I sure as hell wouldn't.
_______________ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ---Theodore Roosevelt
you wanna know my honest opinion? well here it is.
ive lived in this country all my life and its so far been nothing but hell and pain for me. yes im still alive but just barely. only music and art and the love of my fiance keep me alive. this country has done nothing but screw me over. now im NOT saying that this country isnt great. ive seen many people who are treated very well by this country and are very well off, but that just hasnt come my way. compaired to a lot of countries, the USA is a pretty good country but i must say that the government is very corrupt and needs to be restructured and rebuilt to perform efficiantly and effectivly.
as for the draft, right now the way it sits and the way i see it, a draft isnt needed because currently there is no real war thats needed to protect this country. afganistan has been invaded, the things the gov wanted to do has been done, but yet there is still a lot of troops in that country. why? iraq, the things the USA has set out to do has been done. yes iraq is still messed up and needs to be rebuilt but the occupation of iraq will only make the citizens of iraq pissed. saddam has been captured, bin laden still hasnt so what other "war" does america need to get involved in?
the reason the gov would issue the draft is so that the usa can occupy every "modern" and a lot of "3rd world" countries. i dont see why americans should occupy these countries. we dont need troops in japan. we dont need troups in africa, we dont need troups in the UK. thats just a few countries.
to put it simply, since i am basically a pacifist and dont see any need for wars and killing, and also since i couldnt kill someone even if they were about to kill me, i would not go to war if i was drafted. they would have to throw me in jail (if they tried i would fight it in court as best i can and be sure to bring as much publicity to it as possible). i have family i have to take care of and i cant do that if im out in some other country getting myself killed.
one last note, IMHO, electing Bush for another term would be the downfall of america. he will run this country into the ground worse than it already is. also, i really dont think Kerry would be a good president either. but of the two, id rather have Kerry than Bush. B4 Bush got into office i was doing pretty well in life. i had a steady good paying job, i had plenty of food, all bills were paid and on time too, and i could actually afford healthcare. since Bush got in, my life has gone downhill. I will vote this election and i wont vote for bush.
flame me, bash me, yell at me all u want, my views will not change and everyone has the freedom of speech.
one more thing, dunno how many people know, but bush gave tax breaks and refunds to rich people but not poor people. ive heard of a lot of really rich people getting a million dollors or more back and they said they didnt need it. and this is what bush did. think about that.
The Bush tax cuts were designed to cut the marginal tax rate. The way the tax system works in this country is you pay a set amount of federal witholding tax every year, and if you are above a certain point, you pay an additional percentage on top of that. As you increase in pay, both the amount of the lump sum (as a percentage of your gross pay) and your marginal tax percentage increase.
So, when one says Bush gave tax breaks to the rich, they're telling very little of the truth. Those who saw the biggest PERCENTAGE cut are those who pay the least. And you can't exactly get money back if you didn't pay any in the first place. You might hear a lot of sob stories about a burger-flipping single mother of four, but there's no way that person should be paying taxes. Our tax system has a huge number of exemptions built in for such situations, and you end up paying very little in taxes.
As it turns out, the rich are now bearing even more of the total load than they were before the Bush tax cuts took effect. They are paying less, as are everybody else, but as a portion of the overall picture they are paying more.
I'll tell you what bush has done for my friends in india is bring more jobs to them by supporting the idea of Offshoring to help build big business.. GO BUSH wohooo.. my friends over there love him for that !
Hahahaha Exxon Mobil likes to call it 'internal relocating.'
"We're not offshoring, we're hiring our own people in a different location."
That's ridiculous! Someone goes to college for 4 years, gets a good job...and....whammo!! They're laid off because Indians work for 4% of his anual salary..and are boosting the Indian economy.
Max - the market and consumers demand lower prices. If you want to pay more for your next printer and ink cartridges or more for the software you may buy then we can do everything here in America. I for one sure as hell don't want to pay the 60 dollars for cartridges as they are now, which is directly related to the manufacturers "free" customer support.
Don't get me wrong though... I hate the fact that we're losing jobs here, expecially since I'm in CIS and Ecom, so it will directly effect me in two years. But I don't want my ass to bleed on prices.
Afghanistan is by no mean finished business. And when you are in the military, you can't go by your own decision when to be part of something. If that's allowed the military concept won't work. But I'm against the idea of a draft.
+| he who will kill the god if given the slightest chance |+
well when i was working full time i was working at $7 an hour in may. each payday about 1/3 of my entire pay went to taxes. thats absurd. also, i must say, if everything that could be made in america was made in america, yes prices would be higher on everything, but i would rather pay a few dollors more for something and have a job than to pay a few dollors less and not have a job. everywhere i look now, everything i see is made in china, i used to see a lot of "made in america" on everything, what happened? i lost my job due to lack of business which was i believe related to not enough customers haveing the money to buy stuff from that company. id rather pay $60 for an ink cartridge and know it was made in america than to spend money made in america to help a country that isnt ours when america needs a lot of help itself. ponder that for awhile.
this year im voteing and its not gonna be for bush. i would suggest that everyone register to vote and VOTE. last election was soo close that i bet if EVERYONE that uses this website alone voted, it wouldnt have been soo close and could have been totally different.
I find it hard to believe that a soon-to-be married legal adult is/was only making seven dollars an hour. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't really seem plausible. One would think that most employers have the decency to offer you more pay for your work if you're living on your own and supporting yourself or your family. I'd expect seven an hour for, say, a typical teenager.
Don't listen to Flintsilver. He's been drinking the kool-aid and is far from having a clue.
Bush's tax cuts are a JOKE.
Students paying more:
Since President Bush took office, state colleges and universities across the nation imposed their "steepest tuition and fee increases in a decade" – some as high as 40%. Tuitions rose at public institutions in all of the 37 states responding to a recent nationwide study, almost all due to federal/state budget cuts in the state budgets. In the 2003-04 academic year, college tuition and fees increased an average of $579 at public universities, $1,114 at private institutions, and $231 at two-year public colleges. Meanwhile, the Administration proposed a rule change that would deny Pell Grants to 84,000 students, while freeze funding the program. Bush's latest budget also proposes to "prohibit agencies from waiving a 1% Stafford Loan fee and forces students to collectively pay $1 million in interest each year." [Source: Washington Post, 7/22/03; U-Wire, 2/6/04]
The tax increase on low income families:
According to the National Association of State Budget Officers, 32 states have effectively increased taxes on low-income families by raising their Medicaid co-payments. Additionally, "50 states reduced or froze payments to Medicaid providers, 34 states have reduced or restricted Medicaid eligibility, 35 states have reduced Medicaid benefits." In Florida, for instance, deficits caused by tax cuts have left more than 80,000 kids on waiting lists for health care. Overall, because of these tax Medicaid fee increases and deficits, 1.7 million people could lose minimum health coverage. [Source: National Association of State Budget Officers, 12/2003; CBPP, 3/20/03]
Want more? This study was released several weeks ago:
President Bush's tax cuts since 2001 have shifted more of the tax burden from the nation's rich to middle-class families, according to a study released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office.
The tax rate declined across all income levels — but more so in the top brackets, the report said.
The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent. The middle 20 percent of taxpayers saw a decline of 4 percent.
Now, those lovable Republicans who turn to puddy at the mention of Dubya's name can proudly can read back and look at that information. It might take a while for it to sink in. The facts are facts.
The CBO report said about two-thirds of the benefits from the cuts went to households in the top 20 percent, with an average income of $203,740.
Oh Joy! I'm sure they'll bring our economy back to life!
...the federal budget swung from a more than $100 billion surplus in 2001 to a projected deficit exceeding $400 billion this year....
Good job! More tax cuts for those poor souls who make over two hundred thousand per year!
Want more brilliance from George's bag of tricks? In an effort to increase jobs, the "Economic Report of the President" speculated that fast food jobs should become... wait for it... manufacturing jobs!
Is there no end to this man's steady leadership?
He's steady all right. He won't flinch as he steers America into a wall. Rest assured, George has done to America the same thing he's ever gotten his hands on. Bankrupt it.
No worries, though. He's sitting on a boat load of cash, and ten years from now while you poor suckers that fell for his patriotic flag-waving rah-rah 'freedom for all' schtick will be jobless trying to get by paying rent, Dubya will be visiting Saudi Arabia on some cushy "diplomatic" meeting having seven mill dumped in his pockets for doing "consulting work" with the oil barons of the Middle East.
I'm not sure what study by the CBO you're looking at, but the top 20% are shouldering more of the load. You're most likely looking at poor journalism - the report didn't say that. It can't, really, because it isn't true. Some of your statistics are made up, as you'll see below. As I said. Check here if you don't believe me. Or, if you'd prefer to distort and rehash the Democratic talking points, go right ahead. Like you said, facts are facts.
Your university tuition and Medicaid statistics are irrelevant and have little (if anything) to do with the Bush tax cuts. You're drawing a conclusion based on nothing more than somebody's partisan opinion and presenting it as fact. It's as transparent as glass.
But, alas, I should know better than to trouble an economic leftist with facts and statistics. They'll either ignore them or conjure up their own facts. You may now return your head to the sand, as it was.
Disliking a certain party, a certian politician, or your current job situation (You can include me in all those too. I'm pulling it too as we speak.) is NO reason for not supporting free market and free trade. (end)
+| he who will kill the god if given the slightest chance |+
