Kerry owned Bush, plain and simple. Bush did nothing but speak in broad platitudes because his record is horrendous. Under his tenure our country is worse off in every significant metric: national security, jobs, economy, health care, etc. Time to jettison this failure of a president and let Kerry take the reins.
i'd say bush took the first twenty minutes or half hour, then the hour after that kerry really took off, and won it solidly. they both repeated themselves endlessly, but i'd have to give the final nod to kerry.
thenut makes a good point - bush's lack of articulation ("ain't gonna"s and the like) really hurt him.
i hate to say it.. but i still have to predict bush will win in november. i will personally vote furiously against him, but... there are quite a few people who agree with him.
I should've known better than to read this thread.
There are only really four or five topics they could've discussed, taking at most three minutes on each topic. Nonetheless it was dragged out endlessly, with both candidates saying the same thing over and over.
Kerry STILL hasn't said anything of substance, and he still hasn't offered any plans to do things. It's all well and good to say "we'll do this and this and this" and make it look all rosy but without articulating just how that will be accomplished the utopian promises are worthless.
However, it does look like Kerry did well, at least according to his polls.
Flint, I sometimes see you talk about what Kerry hasnt said or tried to clear up some misconceptions about Bush but never ONE THING hes done right or why you support him?
Kerry's not a messiah, but I am completely certain I do NOT want Bush for 4 more years. I've taken an objective eye to his past performance and his future plans and almost nothing he says/wants I agree with. Sure we know what Bush will do, but I dont think thats necessarily a good thing; I want to give someone else a chance.
I had more thoughts but I'm at work and lost my train of thought. :(
when it comes down to voting, i'm a republican. i vote stright republican because my parents do. i come from a very conservative family (both my grandpa's fought in normandy, one as airborne, and another as a pilot), so i am voting bush.
this election asks one question: are you a democrat or are you a republican?
Thats typical.. Voting one way because your parents do or because you think siding with one particular party makes you seem cool. Get bush out of the white house he's not for the common folk, he's for the weatlhy and he's proven that time and time again.
The only good thing bush has done since he's been in power is to crush the taliban and they deserved it.
you may say its a waste of my vote, but i refuse to support either bush or kerry, so ill vote libertarian. either that or mickey mouse, haven't decided.
it takes a big man to cry, but an even bigger man to laugh at that man.
lilcstyle4, I hope that was sarcastic. Do you realize how narrow-minded and stubborn that is? Please don't vote for a party, vote for a candidate. Vote for the person who most shares your views, even if that person is Bush, regardless of their party affiliation.
Oh how I wish we could get rid of the party system in this country. The amount of people who will vote for a color just because without informing themselves of a damn thing is unbelieveable.
If I were supporting Bush before this debate, I can't see how in the world I'd continue supporting him after it. Bush is an incompetent leader.
As for everyone complaining about how you aren't voting for anyone, I say this. Don't complain about the state of the nation when you aren't exercising a powerful voice, your vote. And don't think that some light bulb will go off in America and a third party candidate is going to become a prime time player. It's going to be a long, hard road. I am in favor of putting in more third-party candidates. However, with the dangerous President we have in office right now, the effort must be put on hold to put a more reasonable man back in office.
We aren't going to get a perfect candidate. John Kerry isn't. But he's light-years ahead of the Orwellian-like Bush and his ignorant neo-conservative regime.
i'm not living in amerika but serious ,sommethimes me and ALL people i now here living think that 80% of the amerikan population is retarted and brainwashed ...sommetimes when i just listen to what bush has to say and all i can do is nod my head like , "there are actually people whom believe this guy...the only real danger for the amerikans is bush himself ,cause believe me as long as amerikan politics keep doing what they are doing now a second 9/11 is just a mather of time and the only one to blame is your own government & the people who vote for this clown, just my 2 cents
there is not "1" good thing bush did ,the only thing he did was turn the entire world against amerika and made amerikans look like naief ,dumb and what not , i know not all amerikans support this clown but believing that bush actually drove the taliban away is a dumb thing to say ...taliban is still alive and kicking in big parts of afghanistan ,the parts where there is no more taliban you got warlords instead...first it was taliban , then it was sadam ...whats next
Anyone who says they don't know where Kerry stands isn't looking hard enough. I know you're all capable of doing a little reading. Visit johnkerry.com. Hell, visit all the candidates sites and FIND OUT what their stances are. As hard as they try they can't always put their views where everyone can catch them. Not to mention most of the media is too busy calling Kerry a flip-flopper to actually educate anyone.
Aero, good point. Some people just are too lazy to look and see the true stance of a candidate. It's much easier to just buy into the vomit that the Republicans belch out in their daily talking points..which is repeated, by the way, by most of the mainstream media, 99 percent of talk radio, and 24 hours a day on a certain cable news channel.
For people who don't pay attention to politics or aren't familiar with current events, it's easy to think Bush is great and Kerry is a flip-flopper. Bush's chance of being re-elected lies in the voter who doesn't have a clue what is going on and just decided to believe the repeated lies and slander that dominate the airwaves.
That's blasphemy spelling America with a K! As is not capitilizing! I don't capitilze everything that I should while typing, but God and America are two words that most certainly get capitlized man!
• Mr. Wynton [.wyn] Customize.org Staff Resident highbrow.
Just to state one thing that is probably a little bit of subject but it seriously ticks me off. AMERICA IS NOT A FUCKING COUNTRY. It is a continet, not a single country, so when you adress to "America", you are talking about the whole continet, im american and i do not live in usa and I hate it when people call one single country america as if they owned everything. Fuck no, theres other countries in america, start calling your country by its name, its not other fault you picked an awfull-long-hard-to-spell name. Just use usa, its shorter.
all the people saying "i know where bush stands already, but i don't know anything about kerry, so i'm voting bush" annoy me to no end. of COURSE you know where bush stands, we've been exposed to this mockery of a politician for the last 4 years, it's completely logical that you'd know. instead of taking the easy way out and voting for familiarity, do some reading, maybe even listen to some radio. but god stay away from the big news channels, they're almost always biased.
_ that rhythm, it's doing something to my human butt
I should've known better than to read this thread. Anybody who believes the news media is biased conservatively has long since fallen off their rocker.
But hey, whatever. Preach your propaganda that Bush is a mockery, a moron, or whatever garbage it is that you believe. Preach your idiotic thought that John Kerry actually has taken a stand on something. If you prefer style over substance, go right ahead and say John Kerry won and he looked more presidential. Remove Bush's stuttering and pauses and you've got a very clear winner of the debate.
But like I said, I should've known better than to read this thread. I'm heavily outnumbered by far-left people here, with a few sensible opponents scattered throughout. If you have to wonder if it's you, it isn't. Some Kerry supporters make good points, others eradicate what tiny bit of credibility they have through their language and references.
IF - and I repeat IF - I were so inclined, I would happily parse the entire text of the debate piece by piece to explain my problems with both sides, and explain the lies of John Kerry. I only noticed one "off" figure from Bush - that of the 75% of Al Qaeda captured. I thought it was 66% - 75% might be an unfair jump.
I should've known better than to read this thread.
Whoo... as half of you before me have said, I knew I shouldn't have read this thread. And as I type, I know I should keep my mouth shut... ohh, boy... here goes nothing... One, I think voting party lines is very ignorant. Vote for the candidate, if you're going to vote. Two, those that don't vote can complain just as much as those who vote for the winner, then don't like him. I never hear anyone say "you can't complain if you voted for the winner," but always "your vote is powerful so if you don't vote, shut up." That's just not quite right, to me. Three, they're both (Kerry and Bush) politicians, therefore first and foremost, they are liars (or professional actors, if you prefer). In the (should-have-been) immortal words of the Return of the King (the cartoon) soundtrack, "...who will win, and who will lose? Choice of evils, yours to choose..." We've got no _good_ choice. Finally, just something that gets under my skin - and I mean no personal offense by it - yes, I disagree with purposely misspelling the country's name with a K, and that sort of thing, but calling it blasphemy? I thought that was a word reserved for religion contrary to one's own...? Are you saying you worship the president as a god (not capitalized for use in the sense of a diety)? I certainly hope not... Anyhow, happy voting :) By the time I find out who's the new Commander-in-Chief, I'll be serving under him in the USAF. Maybe someday I'll have enough clout to run for office... Would you vote for a fellow Custo-er? ;)
i'm not going to attempt to defend my privious post, and i will admit that i cam accross as hard nosed and stubborn; i have read up on both candidates and their platforms, and i am siding with basicly, the lesser of two evils. it's a sad day in american history.
as for votoing for a party, i am pretty much the farthest thing from a liberal you'll ever meet. that's why i vote repub.
Flint, you act as if you're some sort of shining beacon of reason when the only thing reasonable about you is the (thin) veneer of logic you slap over your words. You still haven't given any reason FOR supporting Bush, you say democrats/liberals/the left/whatever spread propaganda. All YOU'RE doing is spewing the same right wing vitriol (propaganda if you will) about anyone who isnt a Republican. Even without the "stuttering and pauses" it surely would've been a Kerry victory (for lack of a better term). When even FOXnews says Kerry won, you know Bush looked really bad. I think the only reason you view it otherwise is because you've become so used to his same rhetoric over the last 4 years you've actually talked yourself into agreeing with/believing in it. Of course, this all assuming you're not just blindly following your parents like so many Republicans seem to do.
By the way, "Anybody who believes the news media is biased conservatively has long since fallen off their rocker". That was the funniest thing I've read all day.
Flintsilver, I guess you missed the part of the speech where Bush said the AQ Kahn network was brought to justice. That was a flat out lie. Kahn was pardoned by the Pakistani President, is hailed as a national hero, and has never been charge with a single crime. Oops!
And don't forget that 100,000 Iraqi policemen remark. Try 35,000, George.
Finally, if you'd stop listening to that nimrod Rush Limbaugh for a few seconds, you might actually have an original thought in your head.
It's ironic when a wingnut like yourself uses the term 'propaganda.' That's about all the Republican party uses. What with Fox News and all.
lilcstyle4, the lesser of two evils? That would be George W. Bush. Anyone more intelligent than a chimp can see the incompetence, ignorance, and downright insanity that permeates throughout Bush's policies and ideals. Bush is a zealot and an idealogue that is far out of reach with reality.
i'd just like to point out that i didn't say tv news was biased in either direction. you made that assumption yourself, based on my dislike of bush. i don't expose myself to ANY tv news. it's all reactionary, it's all about ratings, it's all garbage.
YOU COULD DIE HORRIBLY!!!!!!!!!! Find out how, and how you can keep your CHILDREN FROM DYING on the 5 o'clock news show with Schmuck McGee!
Shyeah. I worship the President of the United States of America as God. Don't flatter yourself, and don't try to be funny either. Twas nothing more than a play on words downgrave. Play on words. Indeed, blasphemy is generally reserved for one going against or insulting the God of a particular religious sect.
I don't worship the President. The President is just as stupid as some hobo who drinks on the corner. They're both men, and neither of them can make the sky turn magenta.
They can't fly either.
• Mr. Wynton [.wyn] Customize.org Staff Resident highbrow.
The News is Reactionary? Do you even know the definition of a TRUE Reactionary? They hate all races except for white and will slaughter ethnic babies and use insanely cruel methods to destroy them (all races except for white), thus insuring white supremacy. Repeat-- they will kill innocent babies for their cause.
No sir, the news and the KKK most certainly do not work cooperatively.
Meh, this is conversation is rough on the brain. Let's all go sit out on the back porch and relax.
• Mr. Wynton [.wyn] Customize.org Staff Resident highbrow.
Always thought of a reactionary as an oopenent to liberalism, the ying to the yang or whatever. Dunno about the killing babies stuff.
I'm not going to say much here, it's pretty easy to see who thinks for themselves, who doesn't and who doesn't even have the slightest clue here.
The Republicans have become masters of propaghanda and manipulation, hence the Bush signs in trailer parks. Good for them I guess, bad for people.
The Dems only wish they were so good at it. Give them a couple years and soon they'll be as good at misleading and misrepresenting things as the GOP.
The whole system is sunk, just fucked. The media is a bunch of morons and if you're not really worried about the future of the USA, I'll have what you're having.
colossus72 [c72] Customize.org Staff member relations, submissions.
I've got nothing to prove to anybody here. I could just as easily demand all of you tell me why Kerry is a worthwhile candidate. I can't even begin to imagine the irony in this argument - the party of tolerance certainly has little tolerance for an opposing viewpoint.
Oh, and feel free to call me more names. Self-congratulatory pragmatism while justifying it is also welcome.
I guess I just don't think for myself. While I don't even listen to Rush Limbaugh, I'll have to take your word and assume he speaks and thinks for me.
As far as I can discern from reading between 10 and 15 news sources every day, the A.Q. Kahn network has had their finances and operations disrupted and they've been forced from Afghanistan. Bush didn't mention Pakistan, you did. We're by no means done with the war on terror. I have no idea where your Iraq police numbers come from.
Kerry provably lied during the debate. We did not spend $200 billion in Iraq. We have $120 earmarked for Iraq and the other $80 for Afghanistan. We do not have 90% of the casualities unless you exclude Iraqi police and security forces as well as militants and "insurgents" who likely account for at least 10 dead to every 1 coalition soldier. He contradicted himself many times, saying weapons and terrorists are pouring out of Iraq, now a haven for terrorists, but Iraq is and was not a part of the war on terror.
The last poll I saw shows the following: (a Gallup poll, by the way.)
Was more believable: Bush +5%
Was more likable: Bush +7%
Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job: Bush +17%
Best-equipped to handle Iraq: Bush +9%
More trusted to be Commander-in-Chief: Bush +10%
Was a better orator? No doubt John Kerry. We know Bush isn't a good speaker. If you're going to elect a President based on slickness, well, that's your prerogative. These debates are aimed at undecided voters, and those people were probably watching baseball.
I am absolutely wasting my time here. I will always be labeled as a right-wing lunatic. All my news sources are biased (I mean, c'mon, CBS is clearly right-wing), I have no original thoughts, and I only believe what my parents want me to believe. I live in heavily liberal Northern Virginia. It's as much a microcosm as the Pacific Northwest or South Florida - where I imagine most people think the news is extremely biased conservatively.
I should've known better than to read this thread. I'll still stand up for what I believe is right even though I know it falls on deaf ears.
I'm big on security. I think that's the most important issue right now and Bush has done a good job of protecting us. Given the state of the world immediately after 9/11, it's impressive that there have been no attacks since then. I like the idea of finally cleaning up the rest of the rogue nations and ultimately making the world safer.
The economy might be the second issue. GDP is growing at a good rate, unemployment (5.4%) is lower than it was in the Clinton years (long touted as the best in history - 5.5%). Jobs have been growing at a rate of around 4 million a year,which is fantastic. All the signs of a strong economy are there - the old claim of a "jobless recovery" is now invalid as well. Additionally, I want to keep as much of my money as possible. The government's a terrible spender, and John Kerry's "rolling back" (a tax increase) is just not what I want.
And I believe in the sovereignty of the U.S., which is not secondary to world demands or the corrupt United Nations.
Flintsilver, that's the biggest farce I've ever heard. Bush has ruined the econonomy and made us less safe. You are really too far gone to help, but I'm going to post these facts anyway to prove your ignorance:
2,931,000 Number of jobs lost in the private sector since Bush took office.1
135,000 Average number of jobs created monthly under every President since Truman.2
-79,189 Average number of jobs created monthly under Bush.1
2,447,000 Number of people who have become unemployed since Bush took office.1
4.1 percent Unemployment rate when Bush took office in January 2001.1
5.6 percent Unemployment rate in March 2004.1
8,170,000 Total number of unemployed Americans.1
675,000 Number of Americans experiencing long-term unemployment (27 weeks or more) when Bush took office in January 2001.1
1,871,000 Number of Americans suffering long-term unemployment in March 2004.1
177 percent Increase in long-term unemployment under Bush.1
11.8 percent Percentage of consumers who believe jobs are plentiful.3
760,000 Number of workers who have lost their unemployment insurance since December 2002.4
Sources: 1Bureau of Labor Statistics, 3/04; 2House Appropriations Committee Minority Staff, 3/04; 4Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, 2/25/04;
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In 2002 And 2003, Bush Increased Spending By 13 and 12 Percent: As with 2004, Bush and the Republican Congress increased discretionary spending in 2002 and 2003 by 13 and 12 percent, not by the 6 percent and 5 percent claimed by Bush. [Heritage Foundation study, 12/16/03]
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Bush Inherited Projected Ten-Year Surplus Of $5.6 Trillion: In January 2001, the CBO projected that the total surplus would reach $281 billion in 2001, and approach $889 billion in 2011. Surpluses were projected to accumulate to $5.6 trillion over 2002-2011. [CBO, Budget and Economic Outlook, 1/01]
Deficit Will Exceed $400 Billion Every Year For Next Ten Years: The deficit will exceed $400 billion every year through 2014. By 2014, the deficit will reach $708 billion. [Congressional Budget Office, 1/26/04; Center on Budget & Policy Priorities, 1/21/04, 2/1/04]
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As for your statement that Bush is doing a good job protecting us, well, I'll let that statement speak for itself. If after all that's happened the past four years you still think that way, nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
If we aren't being protected, I'd just like to know what protection is. Fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is certainly preferable to sifting through wreckage in NYC. There have been a few near-misses with terrorists caught by heightened security measures since 9/11. And of course, there's really no way to quantify prevented attacks.
Your numbers (sorry, the DNC's numbers) often don't reflect Bush's policies. Bush dealt with 9/11 and the corporate scandals, which very directly affected the economy. He started in a huge hole there.
But anyway, let's thank you for presenting the facts in a way Michael Moore would approve of. You isolate the private sector jobs. An analysis of the BLS statistics shows that over Bush's tenure so far the net job loss has been 1.1 million. Nothing to be too proud of, but as I said (and the statistics prove) Bush inherited a economy on its way out - especially since the end of tech boom in 2000. You can choose to ignore this - I expect this - but it's true.
Also, since BLS statistics haven't yet covered 2004, they are omitting the most impressive economic figures of Bush's term. We're actually on pace to recover more jobs by November. I'm not focusing on unemployment figures because they don't take into account self-employed people. Additionally, most of your statistics are hardly (if at all) indicative of Bush's economic status.
What you need to realize - and this is plain as day - is that the economy is growing rapidly. What is truly indicative of the economy is the track record over the last year or so. As you well know the President's policies must be given time to work - the economy is traditionally very slow to respond. Well, since then, unemployment has sharply declined, job growth has increased, and the GDP has increased at a rate far greater than the historical average.
I can't believe (well of course I can, being who you are) that you accused me of not having an original thought. You just posted an advertisement from the DNC as if it were an end-all to this debate. Wow, got me there. I'm not going to call you names or insult you. In my mind, your posts (and your past posting history) does more than enough to identify your stance. I'd be happy if you would just admit that the economy is growing rapidly. The numbers support that, and since you brought up numbers you can probably respect that.
I'm done with this. You're just going to believe whatever you want to believe.
all i have to say to everyone who gets this far is this:
EDUCATE YOURSELF!!! don't just base your opinions of bush and kerry (or even nader or larouche) on what's been said here. don't let the media - in ANY form - be your sole basis for decision. look at what the candidates say on their sites and in interviews. try to think for yourself. try to form your own opinion. if only this once, do it.
they say that this election is going to make history...frankly, ALL presidential elections make history. they are ALL key elections. they ALL decide the future of the country and affect the world. if you are american and 18 or older: register to vote. this is YOUR chance to voice YOUR opinion and to exercise what power YOU have to determine what happens and where the future goes. if you aren't american, encourage any american friends you have to educate themselves about this election and to vote.
Man I thought this thread was done earlier. Everyone leave flint alone, he cant stay away from political threads he's drawn to it like mosquitos are to a mosquito zapper. Lets all vote for who we think is best and sit at the television on 11/2 to see who wins.
customize.org staff member relations ~ accounts visionleague™
I'll admit that you can usually ignore unemployment numbers because recessions usually happen wether you like it or not, but you still have to have someone in office that's trying to actively remedy the situation. From what i've seen it doesn't look like bush is actually doing anything to address the issue of unemployment, or any other problems at home for that matter. Oh he says he'll do something about it, but instead he opts to go on some crusade while ignoring the ramifications, expecting everything else to be rosy.
The rest of the world has good reason for a change in administration in the US! What right do these neo-con's have to rule the world?! It makes me sick to my stomach.
And is the current Bush administration ever going to stop to think *why* the US is such a target for terrorists? Maybe if they were smart enough to address the reasons for terrorism they might not have to spend tax payer's money pummeling countries they don't like into submission.
The US's pre-emptive strike has set a horrifying precedent -- doesn't say North Korea now have justification to nuke the US? Or any country going to war with any other country for that matter? Just because they don't like what they're doing and perceive them as "a threat to national security".
And since when has Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 anyway? Was Saddam honestly a threat to the average american citizen? Of course he wasn't. Don't get me wrong, Saddam was evil, but I think it's pretty naive for Bush and co to think they can blow up a country and in months expect to install a (US-style) democracy in a society that hasn't had one for thousands of years.
Please US citizens, read then vote, the fate of the world is at stake!
========================== Well I'm puttin' it down But you treat me like a clown And I don't wanna be funny
Sad thing is that most people who've been supporting Bush up until now aren't gonna change their minds about it real quick. I mean to stick by the side of that buffoon though all the crap he's pulled must take some special kind of stupid. Campaign slogan might as well be "duuuuhhh."
woooo woooo I did not say I will vote for Bush. Anyone who really know me knows I am not conservative politically. OH I do read and search, but basing on promos from candidates' sites? Good luck on that.
Not supporting one doesn't eaual support the (most likely) opponent of that some one.
So... I don't support Kerry does not mean I will support Bush.
The world is not about a choice between two. Be more independent.
Peace.
+| he who will kill the god if given the slightest chance |+
Bush supporters are the true definition of ignorance. Here is a man without morals, a puppet, an empty suit that does nothing more than do the bidding to make it easier for corporations to enter into the White House and do our bidding. These same Bush supporters will ignore the news that came out yesterday about how Saddam Hussein never had the capacity to make nuclear weapons. The Bush Administration knew that, yet they continued to pump that lie to America to make us fearful. This coward needs to be sent back to his ranch in Crawford.
Flintsilver, thought you might like to see some new job figures....Are these the numbers that prove the economy is growing rapidly?
U.S. planned job cuts soared to an eight-month high in September while new hiring rose only slightly, a report said on Tuesday.
Employment consulting firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc. said employers announced 107,863 layoffs in September, 41 percent more than in September 2003 and 45 percent more than in August of this year, when 74,150 were laid off.
The September figure was the largest since January 2004, when employers laid off 117,556 workers.
The September figure brings third-quarter job cuts to 251,585, 19.9 percent more than the 209,895 registered in the previous quarter and 4 percent more than the 241,548 for the third quarter of 2003.
Job losses in September were particularly heavy in the computer, transportation, telecommunications and consumer products industries, the report said.
Adding to the glum jobs picture was the slow pace of new hiring in September. The report said employer hiring announcements revealed only 16,166 new job openings in that month compared with 132,105 in August.
I can tell you all that are scared that Bush is going to reinstate the draft that you're being fooled by Kerry and his cohorts. The 2 bills in legislation were sponsored by Democrats. For you that say Bush is easily fooled, don't be so sure. He's not the dumbass you think he is. Bush is a statesman, Kerry is a politician. Do you know the difference?
In response to frederoil's post: The President’s jobs and growth policies have put the economy on the road to recovery, but there is more work to be done. The President has outlined a six-point plan to create even more job opportunities for America’s workers and keep America the best place in the world to do business. The plan includes: enabling families and businesses to plan for the future with confidence by making tax reductions permanent; making health care costs more affordable and predictable; reducing the burden of lawsuits on our economy; ensuring an affordable, reliable energy supply; streamlining regulations and paperwork requirements; and opening new markets for American products and services.President Bush’s pro-growth agenda, strong education system, and policies to help American workers gain the skills to secure good jobs are the right ways to respond to the challenges of our growing and changing economy.New job figures and other recent economic data show that America’s economy is strong and getting stronger – and that the President’s jobs and growth plan is working. The Labor Department announced that employers added 288,000 new jobs in April. In total, over 1.1 million jobs have been added since August, with 8 consecutive months of gains.America has a choice: It can continue to grow the economy and create new jobs as the President’s policies are doing; or it can raise taxes on American families and small businesses, hurting economic recovery and future job creation. (www.georgewbush.com)
And for oconghaile: The draft bill was put into legislation by Democrats for no reason other than to prove a point. Many people, such as myself, feel that a strong talk on a draft will cause many people who support the war in Iraq to think twice about it. For many, this war is a luxury, they don't know anyone hurt by the war, it doesn't cause them any trouble. By starting draft talk it gives a lot of these war-mongering suburbanite Republicans who have all of their sons and daughters in college a chance to think if they really want their _own_ sons and daughters to die for Bush's war on the middle east.
Today, the ones that are the quickest to beat the war drums are the very same who came up with every excuse to avoid going into combat when it was their turn to serve.
oconghaile, frederoil just posted a report disputing part what you just said. I also find it amusing you parrot something from Bush's own website. Seems biased, yeah?
Of course, that says nothing to the fact I think his "job and growth" policies are horseshit. Tax cuts aren't what America needs right now, especially not when we're occupying foreign countries. His "common sense solution" for health care just moves us further away from a national health care system and closer to pharmaceutical price gouging (not that we dont already have that) and more burden on hospitals. The rest of the crap he promises is the same thing every candidate says, nothing new and nothing impressive there.
Iraq is one huge fuck-up and the current administration won't admit it. Apparently, consistency never means having to admit you're wrong.
Also, as far as I'm concerned the draft is irrelevant right now. It's a very unpopular issue with most people and the military saw what forcing people to be soldiers causes. Vietnam anyone? The current noise about it is just that...noise.
One thing you need to understand about jobs is the concept of productivity. Productivity has been increasing steadily since Bush took office - and rising at a much higher rate than when Clinton was in office. Productivity is inversely related to the number of jobs - if we are unproductive, we require more people to do the same job. Nonetheless, net jobs are up substantially in September - a generous estimate would be around 400,000.
Aero brings up a good point about the draft. Just noise. Vietnam was bad because we had a bunch of people fighting when they didn't want to. Conscripts are basically useless next to volunteer soldiers, and I think we know that.
Yes, GWB's site is "biased.' You can look at only the indices and numbers that support your claim, and overstate the importance of those numbers. I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased. Nobody thinks I'm unbiased. I think in general it's tough to dispute that the economy has been recovering very well for a year now. But, we'll still dispute that, and to no avail.
And by the way, it's not to Bush's credit that productivity increased. And hence it's not to his fault that jobs were lost. The economy is rather cyclical - look at plenty of statistics and you'll see that it has little regard to who's in office. Some policies do have an effect, but many don't have any strong effect.
Tax cuts were fine in 2000, but at the end of 2001 they weren’t and i think everyone can figure out why. Bush shouldn't have continued with the cuts under the circumstances, and I think it is a matter of saving face.
For that same reason Greenspan hacked the interest rates down to almost nothing. Economic improvement can be seen by looking at what happens with i rates... and they've been increasing.
There is no war that is not a mess to whom ever said that it was one. For years after WW2 there were diehard German civilian and ex military groups aimed at stopping the progression and rebuilding of Europe, which is something not commonly publicized in books, magazines, tv, etc. The same will be said about extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There are some things that Bush is doing that really pisses me off like the bill against gay marriage. It shouldn’t be a primary concern for the administration…Especially to make it an amendment.
I’m not blindly following Bush, but I am going to vote for him. Mostly because of my political and humanitarian priority right now…. The war on terror.
The war on terror? Sounds like a catch phrase. People within Bush's administration now admit the war with Iraq is based on, to put it politely, embellished evidence. As far as homeland security goes, besides the fear-o-meter and general proclomattions of "watch out for bad guys" it seems like smoke and mirrors to me. Rule people with fear.
If you can't see that, it's certainly worked on you.
"I'll have 2 Big Macs and a side of fear and loathing."
c72, it's better to be over-suspicious than to underestimate. However, there is quite a bit of propoganda aimed towards making people fearful. However (2), it's definitely something to take seriously and you can see that in your own county if you look up your EMA and Homeland Security departments.
My home county of 35,000 recieved something like $200,000 for homeland security, granted it is the largest agricultural county in Ohio.
The government is really devoting time and money into it because people are worth so much more than money.
I wish we had more than 2 candidates with a snowballs chance of getting elected. I watched the VP debates tonight and was thoroughly impressed by both Cheney and Edwards. If those two were running for pres I would have a sincerely hard time decided who to vote for. Why is it that both our presidential candidates seem like they have their heads permenantly lodged in their hind quarters, while their running mates 'of lesser importance' which come across 500% better in just about every aspect have to take the second seat?
I noticed Edwards mentioned Cheney's gay daughter... I had no clue
Most people don't know Laura Bush is prochoice either. Funny how the diehard conservatives are living in 1950... not that the morals and values were bad back then, but not meant for this day in age.
i think it is shocking that all they talk about now is going out and killing terrorist. Since when is it normal to run on a platform based on killing.
now terrorist don't really care about killing, or being killed because usually they are expecting 80 virgins to great them in the afterlife. but i still am some what taken back by that.
i like edwards more than i like kerry and cheney more than i like bush so i think the VP debate was more interesting. I think both edwards and cheney are more interesting to here talk, however all the back and forth almost 'name calling' that occurs in political debates annoys me to no end. i wish they would just present their ideas on real issues and then compare and contrast them in a FACTUAL manner.
let me just say that, there is no sense in politics and buracracy
why wouldn't we use a flat tax? i mean wouldn't that make the most sense? sure super rich people would paymore than a college graduate just starting out...but shouldn't they?
why do we ship off jobs to india? How are we supposed to have an economy in 50 years if we keep out sourcing...sure send them out dirty factories..but why do we send them our AOL helpline....that makes no sense to me
The government and politics is not about getting things right, its about trying to make everyone happy. and that is why i will vote for kodos.
Why can't we all just be friends and stop flaming each other? Oh that's right, because that only happens in a perfect world fit for a Walt Disney movie. Face it, do you want a strong leader, or a flip-flopper? Someone quick to go to war, or someone who will consider other alternatives? You just have to weigh the pros and cons. Where's Bob Dole when you need him?:)
Here's a site that might help you make up your mind, or at least bring some humor into this flame-war.
Aero: you make a good point. Most of America doesn't care what the fuck Bush told us was the reason for going to war. The reason a large percentage of Americans still support this nimrod in the White House is because of our love of war. The American population would largely salivate at the thought of going into another war. We are a warmongering society. Look at our trucks, look at our guns, we are soldiers even when we are not in the military. We deify the men and women in combat because they carry a large gun and shoot people without going to jail. We salivate over large caliber weapons, loud trucks, big engines, and tanks that can roll over anything. It's no surprise to me that Americans love war. We don't experience war like they do in Palestine or in Israel or in Iraq or Afghanistan. War is something that is someone else's problem. All we know is that we have the biggest guns and we're good at it. If you get in the way, too fucking bad.
Yeah, if you use firefox you can download the bugmenot extension. All you do is right click in the username box and select bugmenot. It will automatically fill in a random user/pass and move right on to the article.
