my sociology professor handed out copies of this article in class last week, and i was curious to know what our international users here at custo think. does it sound accurate to you?
___________________________________________ U.S. Popularity Slides Overseas
London (AP) – America’s popularity around the world has taken a beating in recent years, according to a set of coordinated polls conducted in 10 different countries. But the survey also found that despite animosity toward President Bush, majorities said they have a good opinion of Americans. “We like Americans, we don’t like Bush,” was how Britain’s Guardian newspaper summarized the results of the surveys published Friday. The polls found that to an overwhelming degree, respondents in most countries have a more negative view of the United States now than a few years ago, disapprove of the war in Iraq, and dislike Bush. Democratic challenger John Kerry is favored by landslide proportions in all but two of the nations. But even in France, often seen as a bastion of anti-Americanism, 72 percent said they had a favorable opinion of Americans, compared to 24 percent with an unfavorable view. The polls, commissioned by major papers in each country, were conducted in Canada, France, Britain, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Mexico, Israel and Russia. Not all questions were asked in every country. On average, 57 percent said they had a worse opinion of the United Sates than two or three years ago, compared to 20 percent who said they had a higher opinion now. That question was asked each country except Russia. In eight of the nations, more people said their view of America worsened than improved. 74% of Japanese, 70% of French, 67% of South Koreans, 64% of Canadians and 60% of Spaniards said they had a lower opinion of America now than a few years ago. ----------------------------------------------------------
I am French, and that's the way I feel too. It's hard not to like Americans, they are good people, mostly kind, inventive and caring (in my opinion). The fact that they suffer this filthy thief of a president just put the evidence that good people can be induced in mistake. France and Italy suffer the same gangster politics, so they should know. However, life is based on a day to day exchange, and in that optic, yes, American people are great. Keep on being what you are, guys!
this is best summed up by a comment that may or may not be true: women: mr kerry you have captureed the heart of every thinking person in america Kerry: Thankyou marm but i need a majority...
We're actually faring better than I expected. It's been fashionable to hate Americans for as long as I can remember, especially in Europe. Kind of disheartening, but it's something we have little to no control over.
Republicans and Democrats both suck. They dont speak or work for the working class 9 to 5 blue collar/ white collar people.
Thier voice and services were purchased by thier equally rich brothers in the business sector..
Big corporations contol our politicians because the common man cannot afford to run for office, this is a plan that they've set in motion.
Have you noticed that its only rich people that are currently in office and how these same rich people get so many health and other benefits free of charge when they can easily pay instead of the money coming from our hard earned tax dollars!
customize.org staff member relations - accounts visionleague™
i'm australian and can honestly say americans are responsible for most of the content appearing on shortnews.com, not their president ('bushi' helps out though, no doubt about that), so i'd stick them in the drawer labelled 'silly people', one below the 'do not lend money to' drawer.
I'm in New Zealand, and yep, I'd say that article's about right. USA's foreign policy is the main problem but based on the US TV we get here, my opinion of US people in general is sliding fast too -- the prominence of the neo-conservative religious right, so much materialistic vulgarity, Fox News, all that reality dross and sitcom blah.
In saying that, there's a lot I love about the US: Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld, the indie music (NOT the mainstream), what I've seen of the architecture and scenery, some of the filmmakers, the urban detritus.....
Im american and the fact that I didnt capitalize the A in american is because my heart towards nationalism and supporting my country is a fence straddler. On one side I feel its akward that elections can be so decieving as to cause so many to vote for Bush and then everyone go "wait... I didnt want to vote for a guy that does/says all that!!!" Its ridiculous that we are all still slaves to this pathetic 2 party system when it really has no meaning anymore because each candidate will lie and say whatever it takes to get people to like them and vote. Then if the "wrong" guy gets picked, or if whoever wins the election does something dumb, THE PEOPLE suffer the humiliation more than the president does. I think many of his ideas were in good intention but failed miserably on the execution. Again, many people I know were harrassed in other countries for decisions and actions they didnt make/do. Im sure alot of people in the UK can relate with Tony Blair's support for alot of Bush's decisions regardless of the huge % of them that disagreed.
I dont like Kerry or Bush.... I want someday to go to the polls and have a lush variety of candidates to select from knowing that im not just picking the guy that sucks less than the other.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" The fact that americans voted him in TWICE speaks volumes. Perhaps the first time was a mistake, but the second time is pure ignorance.
I am Canadian and I have to agree completely with that article. Although, Bush didn't just walk himself into office, people voted him there, it's partially their fault as well. I also have to wonder, is the north/south divide in political opinion as prevalent to americans as it is to the rest of the world? In america is there a degree of frustration between the north and south, based on their largely different voting habits?
-It's ironic how "civil" is in the word "civilian"-
I live in the deep south and me and everyone I know voted Kerry. Bush won this time around on fear ("Vote for us or you will die"), the "values" wedge issues that brought out the christian hordes and the fact that they own the machines that counts the votes probably didn't hurt, either (just google "Bob and Todd Urosevich").
almost all the people i know who voted for bush just voted for him because they didnt want their taxes to go up, or voted for him because they always vote republican.
both are idiotic justifications for a terrible decision, in my opinion.
I'm from middle europe and i don't know anyone who loves or even likes USA... America is on my like-to-visit-countries list somewhere between Djibouti and Kenya... One of the reasons why everyone hates US is its foreign policy. US is acting like: HEY! WE'RE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE AND WE OWN YA'LL!!! (and if you don't obey us, you'll end like...dead, ya know, so think twice). I don't say that Iraq is good or saddam wasn't insane or anyhing, but what gives you right to attack another country? And who will be next? Iran? North Korea? You can't do such things!!! To be honest, my personal opinion of US got worse after i saw Bowling for columbine, Corporation, Supersize me, fahrenheit 9/11 etc. I know, these are sort of anti-american movies, Moore&shit(except supersize me), but if it is only 50% true, it' more than disturbing.
first of all.. why Americans? please say North Americans, i´m from Brasil and this is america as well.
i don´t have anything against any people who lives in USA but i really don´t like bush and what he and their "friends" are doing to the world.. of course it´s good for them, they're are THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE AND OWN YA´LL like tahacz said.. but look on the other side and you´ll get why people have so much hate against´em.
Canadians live in North America, and they certainly aren't American.
No one is referring to the North or South American continents. We're talking about the United States of America, which explains why everyone is saying "American".
Sounds like gradeschool - we just HAVE to be popular and are so worried about where we stand among a bunch of other self-interested kids who like us depending on how many snacks we give away at lunch time. Come on now, taking views on the people of another country simply on the basis of their government's policy is silly!
60% more people said their view of America worsened coming from canada. why does this not surprise me and why does this not worry americans? Typicly canada has allways had a low opinion of americans, this has just been the way its been since ye olde days when the angsty americans lobbed cannon balls at us, and we sent rum over the border. =) In my opinion asking this question to canadians is stupid, beucase the only way our opinion would change would be if american politicians all of a sudden grew brains and stoped talking out of thier asses.
Well, if Ethiopa was barging around the world like they owned the goddamned place, you'd probably see a few polls in America about Ethiopa and if what they are doing is right or wrong.
This is really getting to be annoying. Everyone in the whole, wide world knew Saddam had WMD. Everyone in the whole, wide world also knew he wouldn't just let them sit there.
How about this infamous quote:
"The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003."
There's even a UN report that says the same thing. Now, you can believe it was your favorite straw man, "The Bush Administration," and not the entire civilized world's intelligence community. You can believe that ALL the reports of Iraqi WMD being transported to various locations are false. You can believe that nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons components popping up in various locations throughout the world are totally coincidental and not related to Iraq.
By the way, you still never answered the question. You are free to change the subject again, however.
Ignorance to foreign policy is encouraged, rewarded, and completely acceptable not by just the Bush administration, but roughly half of the United States.
"taking views on the people of another country simply on the basis of their government's policy is silly!" ...
...is exactly what's been put out to us by about 70-80% of the corporately owned media groups in the us (Wherever this "Liberal Media" republicans complain about, I'd love to know where you're getting your facts. The two largest news sources in Chicago, A HIGHLY liberal state, both put out their support for Bush in the latest election, for example, and even in states like California, the largest Newspaper's will support Bush. This leads into arguements about his support over huge corporations, rich tax-paying laws, etc etc...but...in any event...)
We can't keep making enemies by invading countries without standard proof. Your 'infamous quote' gives no justification for invading Iraq, and definitely doesn't mean anything now that we've found nothing in the first place. Why do you think the oil fields in Iraq are the most heavily garrisoned by US troops? The US is trying to make another Japan out of a country as hostile to us as Korea.
And for your information, Bush now has the lowest 2nd term president ratings since Ulysses S Grant. If you think it's just foreign countries that are disliking Bush, think again.
Where are these biological weapons "popping" up" I mean, to be fair we should go to war with every country that has recieved them, right? Where are they? I really don't know, I'm honestly asking. I think it's a little ironic to use anything from the UN to bolster a pro Bush position.
But actually, this subject is great, let's stick with it, and if we're gonna do quotes......
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
Dick Cheney, Vice President Speech to VFW National Convention 8/26/2002
"And surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons."
George W. Bush, President Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002
"We know for a fact that there are weapons there."
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Press Briefing 1/9/2003
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
George W. Bush, President Address to the Nation 3/17/2003
"I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction."
Kenneth Adelman, Defense Policy Board member Washington Post, p. A27 3/23/2003
"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense ABC Interview 3/30/2003
"Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find -- and there will be plenty."
Robert Kagan, Neocon scholar Washington Post op-ed 4/9/2003
"I think you have always heard, and you continue to hear from officials, a measure of high confidence that, indeed, the weapons of mass destruction will be found."
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Press Briefing 4/10/2003
"But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found."
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Press Briefing 4/10/2003
"We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so."
George W. Bush, President Remarks to Reporters 5/3/2003
"I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now."
Colin Powell, Secretary of State Remarks to Reporters 5/4/2003
Uh-oh, what is this now........?
"We never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country."
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Fox News Interview 5/4/2003
"U.S. officials never expected that "we were going to open garages and find" weapons of mass destruction."
Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor Reuters Interview 5/12/2003
They sounded pretty certain to me.
"I just don't know whether it was all destroyed years ago -- I mean, there's no question that there were chemical weapons years ago -- whether they were destroyed right before the war, (or) whether they're still hidden."
Maj. Gen. David Petraeus, Commander 101st Airborne Press Briefing 5/13/2003
What?!
"Before the war, there's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found."
Gen. Michael Hagee, Commandant of the Marine Corps Interview with Reporters 5/21/2003
Whew, I'm glad someone's keeping the faith!
"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense Vanity Fair interview 5/28/2003
Awesome. I hope the next you all agree on something it doesn't kill 50,000 people though.
"I'm not sure that's the major reason we went to war."
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told NBC, Today Show. 6/26/2003
Oh.
"But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."
George W. Bush, President Interview with TVP Poland 5/30/2003
You found them! Yay, validation, great work!
"The biological weapons labs that we believe strongly are biological weapons labs, we didn't find any biological weapons with those labs."
Colin Powell, Secretary of State Associated Press Interview 6/12/2003
First off, that quote is HILARIOUS. Second, I guess no validation for you guys, but great doublespeak!!
A British scientist and biological weapons expert, who has examined the trailers in Iraq, told The Observer last week: "They are not mobile germ warfare laboratories. You could not use them for making biological weapons. They do not even look like them. They are exactly what the Iraqis said they were -- facilities for the production of hydrogen gas to fill balloons."
Unnamed British Weapons Inspector The Observer 6/15/2003
"You may be reading too much. I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense DoD News Briefing 6/24/2003
"I think the burden is on those people who think he didn't have weapons of mass destruction to tell the world where they are."
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Press Briefing 7/9/2003
What?!
"The coalition did not act in Iraq because we had discovered dramatic new evidence of Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass murder. We acted because we saw the existing evidence in a new light through the prism of our experience on Sept. 11."
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee 7/9/2003
Wow. Just wow. That is quite a whopper there, Don.
DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still — PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference?
I'm American and I'm glad to be one. Last November, I voted for Bush (I just didn't like the fact that Kerry never really said NO when he was asked if he planned to reinstate a draft). Bush said "not as long as I'm president." Now, is Bush the perfect leader? No. Do I agree with the war? No. Am I in the military? No. But I do want to say thank you to any and all of our military personnel who have served or are currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Since we're all being open and honest, here is the foreign policy I would set if I could: Cut ALL foreign aid. More money for us. Only allow immigration from our allies (UK, Mexico, and a handful of others. No more political asylum to anyone. Dismantle all military bases located in foreign countries. Bring our soldiers home. Issue a warning: anyone who attacks the US shall expect full military retalliation (basically, you don't mess with us, we don't mess with you). Only conduct business with governments who WANT our business. No military involvement. Resign from the UN and NATO. Just let the rest of the world handle their own affairs. Let the conflicts in the middle-east be solved by countries in the middle-east. No more student-visas to students from "unfriendly" countries. Discourage "Intercontinental Human Capital Relocation" by businesses.
These are just the main concepts, obviously the results from each can be discussed separately. Of course, they will all take time to implement. At first this post may seem like a rant, but just think about it.
-I am not unemployed, I'm an independent IT consultant.
[Nacro] You vote for a draft dodger instead of a man that went and served his country even when he did not have too, and you justify it by stating its because the draft dodger stated that he would never reinstate the draft? And to top it all off you spout off your perfect world view of how our government should operate which is filled with completely insane seperatist shut in tactics? It wouldn't be so bad if all your beliefs didn't go against the political ground work George Bush has built since his first election. You're a dummy.
Flint: That UN quote (infamous to whome?) was complete conjecture on their part. Their "evidence" consisting of their interpretation of two satellite photos--one with trucks and one without. There's no proof that anything was shipped out. You know it lacks credibility when no media outlets, not even Faux News, cover it. But, of course, the wingnut bloggers run with it like the monkeys they are.
A few more quotes..
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." - Colin powell February 24, 2001
"We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt." - Condoleezza Rice speaking on CNN, June, 2001
"A US policy of containment has effectively disarmed Hussein. He has not been able to build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction for the last 10 years. America has been successful in keeping him in a box." - Colin Powell, on May 15th, 2001
Nacro: basically your foreign policy would be to isolate the US from the rest of the world? ... dumb
Im a firm believer in the fact that the government knows a lot more than they are telling us and that they are not being completely straight with us about a lot of things. Now this is a bad thing... yes, BUT I also think that sometimes its for our own good. I dont think our government is trying to kill our troops and make the world hate us. I do think that they are using the knowledge they have to do what they think is best. Is what they think is best, what is really the best? I dont know. Its hard to say considering they have much more information than we do.
I do think that with our position in the world, we should be taking the role of helping other countries and defending human rights all over the world.
This is like all contraversial topics. There isnt a clear answer
roflmao!!! c72, after that you are up there with the gods (Generic Omnipotent Deiti's). someone, someone has to make a wallpaper or poster submission with those quotes! that was brilliant. truly brilliant.
whoa. america and human rights in the same sentence. you know frosted flames I was w/ you up untill that and then I thought "the hell is he on?". the us is by no means a saint in terms of human rights. just look at guantanamo bay, camp xray, and abu grhaib(sp).
Wow. I've never seen those quotes before. Guess I should just pack it in and leave, huh?
The question I asked was for proof of how we are barging around like we own the place.
What you did, much to the amusement and satisfaction of apparently everybody else here, was cite a whole list of quotes from people in and around the Bush administration regarding the issue of WMD. Now, assuming that every quote on that list is 100% in context and that each person spoke only in short, convenient sound bites, you have shown 1) the Bush administration believed that there were WMD and 2) they tried (as any politician would do) to backtrack and conduct damage control. If you could, I'd like you to show me where I contended that fact.
A pile of quotes, convenient as they are, doesn't show much. The evidence they had - which was agreed upon by pretty much the entire world along with its intelligence community - was based on satellite photos, intelligence information, and "accounting differences" in Saddam's weapons. You act like - and apparently people believe - that the straw man sat around and conjured up a lame reason to invade Iraq. But no matter what I say here, you're going to come up with some quotes that "prove" what you're saying.
By the way, a quick Google search gives me these quotes from people - most of them very much opposed to Bush - on WMDs. You won't find any retractions because they have no need for them - the damage control lies strictly with Bush.
This, as I said before, is why I stopped coming around here. This board VERY quickly degenerates into left-wing politics. No matter what I write, at least five people will try to discredit it. No matter what you write, at least five people will try to support it.
I can't argue the Iraq war with somebody who has a clear bias. You use the term 50,000 people as a figure of those who've died. This is pretty ridiculous, and even the most extremist news outlets have backed off from that figure. I think 15,000 was the last number some terrorist group used. I recall that The Guardian at one point was 85,000 ahead of the terrorists' estimate, because, hey, they didn't care.
I was waiting for you to post those quotes. You must be going for that GOP TeamLeader tote bag. Most of those 2002 quotes were based on the "intel" the whitehouse chose to share. The other quotes, taken out of context, hardly make an honest talking point.
Im American and there are alot of things that I dont like about some aspects of my country. HOWEVER. I find that most people who would base there opinions of ALL Americans based on things like Fox News....which makes me barf btw...are guilty of making stereotypes. In my experience all of the people I know are decent people and thier views and opinions are NOT represented by american tv or news. Also I find that alot of the comments made here have been made by psuedointellectuals (the worst kind of people) you know..who where those frame glasses to look smart..but they really just read the dictionary to find big words to use...BUT neways...thats it...i think....im gonna go terrorize a small country and spread my imperalistic politics around the globe...erm..i mean...go eat a sandwich
Whoa! I don't know what the hell I was on last night. However, I still agree with cutting foreign aid, letting countries in the middle-east solve their own problems, and discouraging job outsourcing.
-I am not unemployed, I'm an independent IT consultant.
[FlintSilver] So you stopped coming around a windows customization site because of some of its prominent members views on politics? How the hell do you get through 1 day without your head expoding is beyond me.
No, that's n ot actually why I stopped coming around. Trying to buy a house requires ALL of your time, and I haven't really been inspired in months. The last time I was actually inspired to finish something was September or October which was about the last time I came by regularly.
It's irritating coming in here and having people gang up on me. I don't mind a spirited debate but plenty of the people here are rather uneducated about things. Ignorance bothers me a hell of a lot more than liberalism.
I assume I'm the problem, because I'm the one who resorted to childish name-calling?
If you'd bothered to read, you might have realized that colossus and I were exchanging information. The information at hand has direct relevance to the title of the post. It is really in no way off-topic.
By the way, you just epitomized what I said about ignorance. You call names but have yet to provide any useful insight one way or the other into this thread. Personal attacks are never necessary on a message board, and you will rarely, if ever, see me resorting to such a thing. I always research what I write - as a writer, that's kind of my job.
But hey, I suppose you've got it all figured out. I mean, hurling profanity is probably the best way to argue your point. I wish I would've discovered that.
I hope everyone said thier piece now.. There's no need for the cussing and there's no need to keep prodding to get more attention. Agree to disagree and move on.
customize.org staff member relations - accounts visionleague™
He's hurling profanity at you because, shockingly, you're an idiot. You're not an idiot because you are stupid, or ignorant. Amazingly enough, you're just an idiot because of your beliefs.
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
classic teeder todder
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
Too bad Clinton was too busy getting serviced to pick up the red phone.
"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton. - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
and from the farthest left side
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
I’d post the flops, but after the election I think you can understand where this would be going.
c72 – what do you expect road signs? “WMD Storage Site, Exit 666, 3 miles”
Who gives a flying rats ass what the rest of the world thinks of the U.S... The world is going to take for granted anything we do in aid even though it’s more than double than the closest country in aid (Japan). That isn’t true just of the government, but the private sector too. If there is no benefit for a country in a military or political action they avoid it like the plague – even if it’s in the world’s best interest.
Everyone is sour about Iraq and the “deception”. There are a lot more validations for the war in Iraq than just WMDs. At the time the country was very supportive of our actions until we got knee deep in it and it turned out to be something of a challenge. If there are WMD’s – Saddam had plenty of time to dispose of them by either destroying or moving them. War can’t be planned perfectly – especially timing. A preventative measure was required. That’s exactly why we invaded Afghanistan… prevention – not retribution. Why procrastinate and wait for something to happen if you know it is of good probability that something will happen.
This is a lot of fragmented thought, but it’s been said before.
Flintsilver – I know what you mean about not wanting to come around with this crap polluting the waters of custo. I had to roll up my pant legs to get through this thread. You’re right, but you can’t win. http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=6980
"He's hurling profanity at you because, shockingly, you're an idiot. You're not an idiot because you are stupid, or ignorant. Amazingly enough, you're just an idiot because of your beliefs."
I think flintsilver is a moron because of his beliefs, while you and every other right wing conservative thinks the entire world are morons for their beliefs. Do the math and tell me who needs a lesson in tolerance. You're entire belief system is flawed and that fact alone makes everything you've just stated worthless. If you and flint have such a huge problem with the content of the forums, then dont read it. This entire thread is full of egomaniacs trying to prove to everyone that they are the most logical and witty of the bunch. If I didn't agree with tab I would call him a moron for his uber long post as well.
really. this was supposed to be a small query for our international users, a simple question based on an independent poll. if i had my druthers, there would not have been one american reply, and that's why i kept my mouth shut, even after the shitslinging started. we (americans) already fucking know each others' opinions. we live here. please, just for one second, in one thread, at one website, shut up.
maybe it says more about americans when a thread asking for the opinions of non-americans suddenly degrades into a liberal-conservative shitslinging pile of conjecture and idiocy.
for the love of god, allah, buddha, einstein, whoever, shut the fuck up.
Hash, you've been insulting me for as long as I can remember. What exactly your preoccupation with me is I don't know. I'd respond to your garbage, but as it turns out you do a pretty good job of speaking for yourself.
You know, at first, I was going to ignore this, then you provoked me in retaliation to my own statement, albeit you did yours without swear words. I wrote a couple pages out, but, you know, you're not worthy of debate. All you've done thus far is degrade others' arguments without providing your proof. Throwing rhetoric around is for politicians, you want fact. This goes for you too, Arz. At least Tab came up with evidence for his argument. It's like belittling others makes you feel more justified in your own argument, which you do nothing but state. You could say the same about myself, but I'm not even in this argument. I just don't plain like you, and belittling you is a pleasure afforded me here.
Love you too buddy.. The point i was trying to make is that tabs argument swings both ways. It's just a matter of presentation.
If people care enough they can look up the statistics that back my argument. foreign aid by gdp.
Also I forgot to mention in response to col's blurb of 50,000 dead - that in the Anfal campaign 182,000 people were executed under Saddam in a series of mass graves. This included women and childen. That was a single campaign against the Kurds.. and there are many more actions like this throughout the past 25 years under that pig. .009% of american lives lost from the total troops deployed there is extremely minimal. Not to say in anyway that it's ok, but the liberation of Iraq is justified by that single mass grave case alone.
I love you all except maybe hash. He's a mean little guy.
I know you don't like me. You made that obvious long before politics ever came into it. This is supposed to be an art site, but hey, I guess some of us aren't above petty kids' games. If you somehow feel better trying to insult me from across the country on a computer, go right ahead. It's somewhat pathetic that you can say you don't like me having never met me and knowing next to nothing about me. I don't dislike anybody here because I don't know them well enough. And, quite honestly, I couldn't care less.
By the way, I'd encourage anybody who thinks I don't back up my statements with facts and research to privately contact me and I will happily provide my justification. If I cannot, I will change my position on the spot to correct myself. If you think you can debate me, I encourage you to go right ahead and try.
To the ridiculous figure of 50,000 dead, I want to note that under Saddam Hussein, civilian deaths averaged between 70 and 125 per day of Hussein's power. Assuming we have been in Iraq for exactly two years - or 730 days - this means that, on average, Saddam's regime would have killed between 51,100 and 91,250 Iraqi civilians. As an upper bound, let's assume that 22,851 civilians have been killed as a direct result of U.S. military intervention. This is according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net, which is counting every report of civilian deaths in Iraq and blaming them on the U.S. EVEN IF the estimate of Saddam's civilian death rate is off by a factor of two, military intervention has saved lives. (By the way, my figures on civilian deaths under Saddam come from Dr. Stephen Cass, an Oxford graduate with a Ph.D. in Iraqi History. I should also note that the anti-war body count website has been debunked numerous times as being ridiculously exaggerated.)
I hope I can at least prove that I study and research what I believe as well as what I write. I WILL NOT continue on here in this manner. If you want to take something up with me, do it privately. If you seriously dislike me, I'm afraid I can't help you with that. You're just going to have to get over it.
This arguement has been done before. Everyone has their opinion. No one is 100% right. No one is going to change their mind or even be open to any new ideas from people they have never met, but only visit the same website. No one is going to convince anyone of anything. Once it goes beyond sharing opinions and leads into argueing, its gone too far.
Instead of wasting your time in a debate no one will win, start working on something to submit to custo.
Lets not start dividing the community and hating others just because of their personal beliefs that have nothing to do with the purpose of this community.
